I took this to mean that you had no problem with the idea of multiple interpretations of the movie, but you’ve spent the rest of this thread doing your very best to trash any theory that doesn’t happen to jibe with yours. What is your stance?
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*Originally posted by Snooooopy *
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Well, Snooooooooop, that’s a damn fine point, and I still believe in what I said. If ArchiveGuy (and whoever else is of that ilk) prefers his version, then I guess I should be happy with that. When I typed that quote, I could kind of see both sides. But the more I thought about it, the more I liked my side.
I guess I’ll have to agree to disagree? I still think that my way is the easiest to believe, but everyone gets to make up their own mind.
Thanks for calling me on that, Snoooooop (how many damn o’s are in that?). I was getting pretty high on my horse.
Yeah, it doesn’t really fit into any interpretation. It HAS to be symbolic, I think. Symbolic of Leo’s goal: He just wants to get revenge and know that he’s honored his wife. The scene shows that he thinks his wife will love him (in heaven) if he accomplishes his goal. At least that’s my take.
Forgive me if this seems out of place, but I’m not closely reading everyone’s theories yet because I want to see the film again without being too strongly influenced by them. I am looking forward to rereading later, there’s some interesting ideas here. (I’m also shying away from the website for now.)
That said, remember that somebody took the picture of Leonard pointing to his chest. That had to be Teddy immediately after the death of John G., or perhaps someone else (I got the notion Teddy had manipulated Leonard more than once). And there was no scarring there, as there would have been if a tattoo had been removed. In the picture Leonard is saying he’s going to get the “I did it” tattoo. I think Teddy saw his chance and distracted Leonard long enough to get him to forget. He then started setting up the next “John G.”
And the scene with Leonard and his wife and the “I did it” tattoo is symbolic.
Er, by “perhaps someone else” I meant after the death of perhaps some other victim whom Teddy had set up for Leonard to kill. I maintain that Teddy took the picture.
I hope my high school English teacher isn’t a Doper.
Great discussion, folks.
I think I must be very dense. Why does Leonard put on Jimmy’s clothes? When he whacked Jimmy on the head, did he get blood on his own clothes or something?
Man, I loved this movie.
Well now, that was an interesting movie. And quite the thread here to boot~ I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s theories and speculation. I am left with a few random questions that I haven’t seen addressed yet.
Did the picture that Teddy allegedly took of Lenny show him (Lenny) with considerably fewer tattoos than he did when the movie took place? What does that say? That Lenny has been on the hunt for quite some time (tattoos take a bit of time to apply/ heal)? If Lenny still remembers that Teddy told him he helped kill the ‘original’ John G (and is there any substantiation that the photo was of the first killing?) AND he realizes that there has been quite a large amount of time that passed, is it reasonable to assume that Lenny realized that Teddy had been using him for quite some time, possibly to commit a string of murders along the way? Is that good reason for Lenny to set up/ frame Teddy with the ‘Don’t believe his lies’ and the license plate?
Does anyone have thoughts on the other Polaroids at the Flash site? There are several other random people. Are these other victims? Just acquaintances?
How did Lenny remember where he parked his car? How did he know which was his car? Since the Jag was such a recent acquisition, he shouldn’t have (within the rules of the movie) been able to remember that it was his, not Teddy’s.
Lenny seems to have the ability to learn new things, given repetition and time. His new habits, his recollection that he has this ‘condition’. Why would he not remember (or grow to remember/ know) that his wife survived the attack? Was he institutionalized soon after?
How did he remember to buy film for his camera?
There are a few more things that I am puzzling over, but work calls. Last thing I’ll leave you with is a recommendation- Rent Rashamon by Akirasowrasomethingorother (Yojimbo- know the right spelling?) with several people. It has nothing in common with Memento’s plot, but it is a movie that will send you and your friends into long conversations comparing memories and facts from the movie in an attempt to figure out what really happened.
Thanks for your time,
Rhythmdvl
I’ve been abstaining until I saw the film again (too many things I may/may not remember :rolleyes: ), but I did happen to run into this, as reported on <ahem> Roger Ebert’s website:
So take that for what it’s worth…(?)
That would be Rashomon by Akira Kurosawa, and yes it is an interesting film about both the fallibility of memory and our own inclination to be revisionists when recalling out past experiences (particularly our failures).
Here’s another question: at the (chronological) end of the movie, Leonard kills Teddy, and takes a picture. As far as he knows, he’s just killed THE John G. What will happen next? Does he write down what he’s done and get a tattoo saying “I’ve done it”? Is his quest over? Or will he forget, and keep on searching for John G., his quest going on indefinitely?
OK. I just saw the movie for the second time and I think I’ve figured it out.
Sammy was real, but had no wife. He was a con man, just like Teddy stated. The “Remember Sammy Jankis” tattoo allows Leonard to understand his own condition. This knowledge cannot be instinctual. (Aside: Some things can be instinctual like reaching into your pocket whenever you’re confused, and then finding photos) Somebody, probably Lenny’s wife (who learned about Sammy Jankis through one of Lenny’s work stories) had to continually explain to Lenny about his condition by telling him to “Remember Sammy Jankis”. Lenny, adept at using a needle, finally tattooed himself with the reminder.
Right after the rape of his wife, Lenny sees her with her eyes closed under the shower curtain. This is the last permanent memory he has of her: That she was raped AND killed. Her eyes only open up after Lenny is knocked unconscious. Every minute that his memory escapes him, this is the last thing that he remembers. So, one day (after the incident), Lenny’s wife is at work or just not at home, he tattoos the “John G raped and killed my wife” on his chest. How did he get John G.? He saw the police report and noticed that there was no name given to the living rapist. The only name on the report was the investigating officer, or John G. This is the point where Lenny’s condition becomes dangerous for others. His problem becomes an existential one. Any time that his wife is not with him in his line of sight, she is “dead”. Therefore, the only purpose for his being alive is to avenge her death. Teddy the cop and Lenny’s wife probably decide that revenge might cure him of his condition. He kills some drug dealer or other criminal that Teddy sets up, after which Teddy takes the “happy” photo of him. He even helps him get the “I did it!” tattoo afterwords (or Lenny does it on himself, I’m not sure and its not important) to “prove” it forever. But Lenny can never see the “I did it” tattoo because with it, his life has no purpose.
Lenny does not improve. This is when his wife gives him the insulin test and effectively kills herself. He then gets sent to the hospital. Teddy, who has done his best to help, also figures out that Lenny will always have a need to avenge his wife’s rape and “murder”. So Teddy figures that he might as well kill three birds with one stone by making Lenny happy, ridding the streets of another drug dealer, and making some money. Lenny also understands this (instinctually) and intentionally plants new clues for himself after each search (and subsequent killing) is complete.
What’s interesting in this movie is that there is nobody who is completely good or completely evil. Everybody uses everybody for their own selfish reasons, which is probably a more realistic picture of society than in most movies. I even felt bad for the drug dealer (Jimmy Grants) who was “innocently” killed. Even Dodd is simply trying to avenge his own partner’s death.
Did anyone else notice the parallel between the two opposing (but networking) sides? You have the Lenny’s Wife-Lenny-Teddy side and the Jimmy-Dodd-Natalie side. Dodd and Natalie are trying to avenge Jimmy’s death while Lenny and Teddy are trying to avenge the Wife’s death. Dodd doesn’t trust Natalie and thinks that she is responsible and Lenny doesn’t trust Teddy and thinks that he is responsible. The two mistrusted people (Teddy and Natalie) have never met but are in a war against each other. Natalie eventually wins.
He will burn the picture and then begin his new quest. The “I’ve done it” tattoo is there permanently. Its just that he can only see it for the moment or 2 after a quest is over.
I don’t believe that the scene is symbolic. It is placed at a point in the movie when almost everything else is revealed. I think that the scene shows a point before the “insulin murder” of the wife, but after the first revenge killing performed by Lenny with Teddy’s assistance.
I don’t buy it. Leonard’s memories are distorted, it seems, but there’s no evidence that he hallucinates or has any problems perceiving what’s going on now. Besides, if he had the “I’ve done it” tattoo in the scene where Teddy explains it all to him - Teddy would have pointed it out to him: “You already killed John G! See, you’ve got the tattoo!”
I think the scene where he’s shown with his wife and the “I’ve done it” tattoo is occurring in his imagination, not in a literal flashback.
Not to pick on you, Juggernaut, but I also don’t buy the idea that he would have hunted down and killed John G. while his wife was still alive. Knowing his condition, I doubt she would leave him alone with notes or police files or anything that might cause him to do something rash. “Okay, honey, I’m going to work…don’t forget, I’m still alive!” 
This is a good point. “Conditioning” is not the same thing as “remembering through repetition.” Conditioning is more like learning a behavior either through repetition or positive/negative reinforcement. In the electric-shock test, the patient does not “remember” that the triangular piece is electrified. They learn to avoid the triangular piece through negative reinforcement. They avoid it, but don’t know why.
So, Leonard can condition himself to check his pockets for notes and photos - a behavior - but I don’t see how he can condition himself to remember his condition. (Although, maybe he can condition himself to explain his condition. Can a behavior this complex be conditioned? I’m not sure.)
I figured out that the “I’ve done it” tattoo is there permanently in my second viewing of the movie. Natalie actually points to it (although the audience can’t see it because we are only being given Lenny’s perspective) and asks: “What’s this?”. Lenny replies: “That’s for when I find him.” Natalie wouldn’t point to a blank spot and ask what it is. I must point out that Lenny’s existential needs will always block out anything that reveals that the search is over.
Also, Lenny’s wife was raped. She surely trusted the officer who was helping her husband locate her rapist. We don’t know much about her. But most rape victims probably get some satisfaction in knowing that the rapist is punished. And if it potentially helped her husband escape his condition, all the better. And let’s not forget, she was desperate enough that she later sacrificed her own life.
The “I’ve done it” tattoo couldn’t be seen by Lenny in the scene where he kills Teddy. At that point, Teddy wasn’t able to convince Lenny to do anything, including showing him the basement. Lenny would not allow anybody to reveal to him that his “work” was done.
I think that Lenny is a modern Sisyphus. What would Sisyphus do if somebody took away his boulder?
Finally, the only purpose of the “Remember Sammy Jankis” tattoo is to remind him about his condition when he forgets. This is why its on his hand, a place that is always exposed and where you would naturally look.
Alright, so Jackknifed Juggernaut has some good ideas, I particularly agree with the idea that conditioning only affects behaviors. I also think that Lenny’s wife survived but he kills her and some point with the insulin. I also think that Lenny kills a John G. and gets the I’ve done it tattoo, then the picture is taken with him and his wife and the tattoo but at this point he realizes he didn’t really do it because his wife is still alive so he gets the tattoo removed and that’s why Natalie asks what’s this and points to his chest, tattoo removal would leave some kind of scar I think. I just can’t buy the idea that he can’t see the tattoo even though it is there.
The reason that I’m fairly confident that the tattoo is there the whole time is that there are no wasted lines in this movie. So I think that the director is presenting us with a clue by having Natalie ask the “What’s this?” question and pointing to the spot on his chest, and Lenny responding: “That’s for when I find him.” I can’t believe that this little exchange had no meaning. But I suppose that your alternate explanation would work because she could have been pointing to the scar after the tattoo was removed. But why would Lenny remove a tattoo when he could simply choose to ignore it? We all know that he is not afraid to ignore anything else that might possibly reveal that his mission was already accomplished, e.g. burning pictures, not looking in the basement, scribbling out pages in the police report, etc.
Not to be a big sissy, but all this analyzation is killing the movie for me …
BUT, I still go with JoeyHemlock’s interpretation.
This is my movie:
Leonard was an insurance guy, there was a Sammy who did kill his wife unknowingly, Leaonards wife is dead, Teddy did help him kill the killer (who was a junkie), Teddy has been leading Leonard to kill others for his own greed, but Teddy is also just trying to see Leonard’s happy face again, Leonard does believe him when he tell him this, and Leonard does set himself on Teddy’s trail in order to find redemption (at least in his own mind as I pointed out earlier). . . Whew!
The tattoo scene with his wife is so symbolic, there might as well be a subtitled disclaimer to that effect.
I don’t buy the tattoo removal theories, nor the tattoo is really there, we just can’t see it theory. These ideas rely too much on a hoped perception without much exposition. If those were the cases, the filmaker would have given us a bit more of a clue. Besides, it’s just a funner movie my way.
Either that or the whole thing is just an allegory about the battle of Little Big Horn. You decide.
Wait a sec, so you believe that Sammy (with the same memory problem as Lenny) had a wife (with the same illness as Lenny’s wife), and killed his wife (in the same way that Lenny killed his wife)? I’d say that that’s way too much of a coincidence. Why do people not want to believe Teddy at the end (chronological beginning)? Teddy has no reason to lie to Lenny since Lenny will forget anyway.
No. I believe that Sammy (with the same memory problem as Lenny) had a wife, who was diabetic, and who manipulated Sammy into OD’ing her with insulin because she couldn’t take his condition.
I believe Lenny’s memory problem is a case of cruel irony. He screwed over the Jankis’s and now he had the same problem.
I don’t believe Lenny’s wife was diabetic. I believe she was raped and murdered by a junkie.
I construed the scenes of Lenny injecting her to be his attempt to find a memory that wasn’t there. Teddy was feeding him all that shit, and he was trying to remember it. But memory not being trustworthy, he made up a memory to fit the situation. But affterward, he summarily dismissed them as “Teddy’s lies”.
Teddy was a squirrely little cuss. He told Lenny the truth and also lied to him, knowing that he would remember none of it. We just have to decide which were lies and which were not. I thought the story he told him about Lenny’s wife still being alive was just more screwing with his head. The story about how he had been leading him to kill more John G.s was the truth.
At any rate, it was at that point that Lenny decided he didn’t want to deal with Teddy no matter what the truth was, so he took down his license plate number in order to lead himself to kill Teddy, thus finding resolution (again, in his own mind).
Well, I think that its pretty clear that Lenny’s wife’s eyes open up after the rape and after Lenny gets hit in the head. It is so important that the events happened in this sequence. Because before getting hit in the head, Lenny viewed his wife as being dead with her eyes closed. There was no other reason for the director to show us her eyes opening up except to let us know that she really was alive.
Also, while Teddy wasn’t the most likeable character, he knew Lenny’s condition better than anyone. And while he certainly had selfish motivations (as did everyone else in this movie), there is no evidence that he ever lied to Lenny.
There are many movies and books in which ambiguity is used as a tool to get the audience thinking, usually to show that there is no real answer. I don’t believe that this is one of those types of stories. There is an answer to the exact sequence of events and to the question about what actually happened. And the director is happily giving us clues to tell us. The funny thing is that many of us choose to ignore the “truth”. JUST AS LENNY DID.
What a great and brilliant film!!!