That’s funny - I graduated college 30 years ago and I’ve been friends with my physics professor ever since, and I could not conceive of calling him anything other than “Dr. (So-And-So)”. So I know how you feel.
From a *technical * point of view, commissioned officers have their authority from congress. Enlisted personnel have no power except that given to them by their orders from the officers. So if your relative orders you to get him a beer, tell him where to stick it and see if he can get an officer to back him up. Then you have to do it.
Of course, this is all just from a nitpicky level. This logic doesn’t really work outside of a joking atmosphere like “I was promoted one day before you, so go do my laundry.”
It’s not a misperception. Officers can do whatever they want – what are you going to say, as an enlisted guy, “Excuse me, sir, but you didn’t salute me back, and you’re obligated to.” Not in the real world.
I was active duty Air Force for almost 5 years.
First, make sure you’re right before tell others what to do, m’kay?
This link shows us that yes, Medal of Honor recipients are among persons entitled to a salute. In fact, I distinctly remember this being hammered into my brain while a) being in basic training, b) studying PFE material and c) being in the honor guard.
Why are you arguing about this riduclous point? If he’s driving toward you at 25 MPH, and you see, for example, a two-starred marker on the front bumper, are you just going to salute or are you going to peer in to make sure he is who you think he might be?
Further, you don’t salute the PERSON, you salute the rank. In this case, you’re saluting the staff car.
Great post, GoS. It is definitely in line with my experience as well.
I suppose one of the differences is that AB, Amn, and A1C are usually very junior. It’s not uncommon for A1Cs to arrive at their first duty station fresh out of tech school. SrA says you’ve been in for a while.
I went in the hard route: AB, Amn, A1C, SrA, and got out as a SSgt (made it my first time – career field had very low cut-off scores). I think it’s time it takes to make the rank is what differentiates the personal relationships and how individuals refer to each other in and out of work. I’ve met SrAs who demanded that they be called “Airman” from their lower-ranking peers. In fact, I’ve met SrAs who were NCOICs in small overseas shops – usually interim, waiting for a SSgt to arrive, or because they have a line number. So a hard differentiation was required.
That being said, I know when I was a SSgt, I never thought of referring to a TSgt or above as anything other than rank and last name, unless I got to know them. Then again, I worked with MSgts whom I called by first name, even on duty, when I was a SrA.
Every situation’s different. But whenever you’re in doubt, always refer to someone by rank and last name.
But I stand by what I said. If the other person is a relative, and you’re not in a situation that calls for it (in the presence of other military and on duty), and you’ve always known them as Jim, they’re Jim to you.
Good call dudley, please do make sure you’re right before [you] tell others what to do.
One does not have to salute Medal of Honor winners. This, like the belief in the Easter Bunny cannot be killed. There is no official regulation (such as U. S. Navy Regulations), or semi-official regulation (such as the Bluejacket’s Manual) that states this is required. But by all means, if ever you are called upon by a senior to explain a shortcoming, please use “about.com” as your official military reference. Let me know how that works for ya.
And dudley, there’s no need to be snarky. Let’s try and be polite, m’kay?
You are wrong and so is he. In fact, I wrote that author an email about 8 months ago correcting his error and demanding a retraction. Either a retraction, or an actual regulation to back up his misinformation. Guess what… he never replied. I guess he couldn’t find one.
He’s wrong and spreading myths. He’s not a reliable source. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to provide me with a relevant cite. Something like a military regulation or US Code or something.
Let me save you the trouble:
You will not find it in Title 10 USC 3741, (the US Code and Federal Laws regarding the Medal of Honor)
You will not find it in AR 600-8-22, and AR 600-25. (The Army Regulations governing ceremonies and visits of courtesy. The same regulations that list every time a salute is required. Yet, they give no mention of the Medal of Honor.
Because it is not a rule. It is a myth!
Because you said you are saluting the car. You are not. You are saluting the officer inside. To say something as asinine as “you are saluting the car”, undermines the entire point behind one of the military’s oldest traditions and most basic courtesy. You do not salute vehicles. You salute officers. It’s the same dumb shit when someone says “you’re not saluting him, you’re saluting his uniform”. Bullshit. You are saluting the officer, whether you like it or not.
Oh shit… and there it is. I didn’t even realize you made this claim before I made my statement above. But I guess I should have expected it from you. You mentioned just about every other stupid myth regarding saluting. You are saluting the person. It’s an EXCHANGE of courtesies between people. Sometimes an officer might not see you or be too busy to notice (like in a car), so you dont get a return salute. But for the most part, it is an exchange among enlisted and commissioned soldiers. It is NOT some burden placed on enlisted men and women to salute clothes, insignias, and vehicles.
Your statements are insulting to the military service.
Saluting this, saluting that - how do you guys ever find the time to get work done?
It quickly becomes second nature and you don’t even think about it. And besides, when in doubt, whip it out.
Really? Wow. And here I though Tailhook changed things.
[Moderating]
Ok, DudleyGarrett and Bear_Nenno, let’s keep it civil here. I’m not officially warning anyone yet, since no one’s quite over the line, but you’re inching pretty close. Dialing it down a notch would be a good idea. If either of you really want to call someone out, please take it to the Pit.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator (O-1)
Being “forced” to salute the officer, whether (as you say) “you like it or not” certainly detracts from the notion that it’s a mere courtesy.
If that were exclusively the case, then would it not be more common to salute within the enlisted ranks, or even among the same rank? It’s not so much an exchange as one-sided, and it’s not so much an honest courtesy as an expected tribute.
True in fact, but not often perceived as such by the young kids who are taught to do so without the context of the history of militaries and military traditions.
Maybe as an organ of the government, but it shouldn’t be perceived as an insult to members of the services (perhaps as a chance to correct the facts). I’m not disputing anything factual or legal – you’ve got it spot on. I am trying to indicate why the perception exists, as well as the mindset of a not-insignificant number of enlisted personnel. You salute your captain because you’re told you have to salute him. He, himself, is just a body filling a uniform and a rank in the MTOE. It’s the uniform and position that merits the respect, unless he proves that as a man he merits the respect (just getting the job isn’t good enough).
But that’s the same difference as in the “real world” among subordinates and superiors. You’ve got to perform the motions whether the guy you’re respecting is a wiener or not.
Well, indoors, Navy personnel don’t salute. Nobody salutes below-decks in submarines, either.
Outside, if sailors are part of a working party, they don’t stop work to salute. If an officer approaches the working party, the supervisor of the working party will greet the officer and salute him on behalf of the group. Everyone else goes on working.
Most saluting situations arise because you’re outside and walking somewhere. Saluting an officer walking the other way doesn’t really slow you down much.
I have. I worked with a crusty old Master Chief BM for two years during my last shore duty tour at Naval Base Norfolk (1998-2000). He got his Medal while serving in 'Nam. The guy was ancient. I was never outside of the building with him, so I never saw him get saluted, but we (officers and enlisted alike) were briefed about this courtesy when he came onboard.
As I think more about this, I remember that it was a tradition, and not a regulation.
At the risk of stirring up this semantics debate even further, I would have to say that “an exchange of courtesies” is not an accurate picture. If it was a mere courtesy, one could choose whether or not to render the salute. Perhaps “mandatory courtesy” would be more accurate. Saluting an officer is not an option for an enlisted man, and is usually not an option for an officer meeting a senior officer. While the enlisted man’s salute is rendering respect for the grade/uniform/person, the return salute is an acknowledgement. The better officers I knew would even say “thank you” when saluted. While I would agree that it is not a burden, it is mandatory. While in the Navy, I never saluted a vehicle unless it was flying flag rank colors. Colors furled, no salute.
ArmyStudyGuide.com says that Medal of Honor recipients are entitled to a salute. However, the regulation they cite (AR 600-25, Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy) does not address this topic at all.
Since pretty much all enlisted soldiers, senior and junior, get their knowledge from various board study guides, and not the primary regulations themselves, I would consider this a lost cause. I would venture to guess that if you fail to salute a known Medal of Honor recipient in the presence of a senior NCO, you will be disciplined and corrected, regardless of the truth-status of the actual regulation. That’s just the way the Army works.
What I meant was more along the lines of “This is a fact, whether you like it or not”.
But you’re right, even if you dont like saluting a particular person, you still have to salute him if he’s entitled. I dont think it detracts from the notion of being a courtesy. Some courtesies in life aren’t optional. European royalty for example.
Well, if you go a bit further and say “mandatory exchange of courtesy”, then I’ll agree with you. But it is an exchange. Officers are just as obligated to return the salute as enlisted men are to initiate it. What kind of Doper would I be if I couldn’t back up my statements with facts?
From FM 7-21.13 ch 4
*It is more than just an exchange. But an exchange nonetheless.
** Notice that Medal of Honor is not on the list. So you can add FM 7-21.13 to the list of publications that you won’t find such a rule. Because its a myth.
Let me add that if I had ever seen a junior officer deliberately fail to return an enlisted person’s salute, I would have chewed the junior officer out.
Is it possible that it’s a custom, even though it’s not a rule? You know, while there might not be a regulation that one is to salute Medal of Honor winners, it’s possible it still goes on.