The Military After Hours - Ranks and Respect

Factual Questions
1

I’m sure I’ll learn this all when I go to Boot Camp, but my curiosity has gotten the best of me…

My niece and I are the same age and her husband is an E-4 in the Coast Guard. I too am enlisting in the Coast Guard within the next few weeks. I’m told I can go in as an E-3 since I have a college degree already. I’ll paint a likely scenario to ask my question:

My niece and her E-4 husband drive up from Curtis Bay, Maryland to Providence, Rhode Island as soon as he gets out of work. When they arrive, my boyfriend lets them in and gets them settled while I head back from work at Coast Guard Station Castle Hill in Newport. I walk in the door, hang up my keys and see Tyler (niece’s husband). We’re both in uniform, but not working. He’s an E-4, I’m an E-3.

Do I have to salute him? Do we have to act like we are in a military setting even though we’re in my house? Can he command me to get a beer and do I have to comply? Or maybe not a beer, but whatever he might request? Do I have to get permission to change into civilian clothes? Once we’re both in civilian clothes, do we still have to treat each other as we are ranked?

Just curious if both of us can relax and act like civilians or do we have to either physically change our clothes, or even if we do that, do I still owe him my due respect as my superior.

For funsies, my brother in law is an E-9 in the Navy. What would happen if I walk into my own home and he’s sitting there in his uniform?

Thanks in advance guys!

~Shark

2

Outside of boot camp, enlisted ranks don’t salute other enlisted ranks. Respect for a higher rank is expected, just as respect for your elders is expected for civilians. Not sure about the Coast Guard, but in the Navy, you don’t generally salute indoors or uncovered, unless you’re under arms, such as a watchstander.

Having said all that, I don’t recall ever getting in trouble for saluting when I didn’t have to.

3

Enlisted people do not get saluted, unless they’re a Medal of Honor recipient and they are wearing the actual medal. I’ve never seen such a person.

And to answer your question? If you’re off duty, you’re off duty. Chill out. He’s not a different person because he’s in uniform, is he? Unless you’re on the job AND he’s part of your chain of command, you can treat him just like you would if neither of you were in the military.

Not only that, but if you went into a private home and sitting there was an officer, you wouldn’t salute him either, because you’re indoors. If a relative of mine was an officer and we were at either of our houses, I really doubt I’d salute him or her, even if we were standing outside in the yard.

Rules for saluting:

You’re outside, and:

  1. A senior officer’s staff car drives by you – you actually salute the car.
  2. You walk by an officer who outranks you. He doesn’t have to salute you back (but usually des)

You’ll only salute indoors on two specific occasions: You’re called to report to your commander or you’re in some sort of ceremony that calls for it.

4

I’m an Officer, not an enlisted guy, but I’ve found that enlisted are much less rank conscious than Officers are. This is especially true with more junior ranks. I’d follow the advice above and just treat him as a “normal guy” at home. As mentioned above, enlisted personnel don’t salute each other at all, so that isn’t an issue.
And the medal of honor personnel don’t get saluted at all by seniors, that’s just an urban legond that won’t die.

5

Hello, Straightdopers; Giftof Schizo here.

I retired from the AF in 2005 as an E-8, and I can speak authoritatively on rank and respect among enlisted personnel.

The relative difference between an E-3 and an E-4–at least in the Air Force–is somewhat minor. Most of the E-3s and E-4s I’ve known consider each other colleagues, use first names on and off duty, especially since the AF stopped affording E-4s an NCO option. I encourage that in the work setting (as long as the Airmen are mature enough to handle it, as they usually are) as it seems to contribute to the feeling of being a part of a family.

There might be a perception of real difference between, say, an E-2 and an E-4, under which the E-4 might be addressed as “Airman So-and-So” or even “Senior Airman So-and-So”, and certainly there is a good deal of difference between an E-1 and an E-4, but as E-4s aren’t NCOs as they previously might have been, from a functional point of view, it’s not that big of a deal.

Now in my units, I expected and required my E-5s to start drawing the line between themselves, as newly appointed NCOs, and the Airmen. I expected them to minimize their partying with the Airmen, and certainly to not party with Airmen in their chain of supervision. It can be a tough transition for them, but it’s absolutely necessary, especially when these E-5s start writing EPRs on their former party buddies. Under no circumstances would I ever allow any of my Airmen (E-1 thorugh E-4) address any of my NCOs (E-5 through E-8) by first name, on or off base, on or off duty.

Past E-5, the feeling of a horizontal relationship (instead of a vertical one) exists within the grades, mostly. As an E-8, I participated in a relaxed, first-name operating basis when alone with the other E-8s, and in the case of those whom I outranked, if it seemed appropriate and if we were out of hearing of any personnel who were lower ranking than the subordinate, I might refer to them by first name while they refered to me with grade-lastname. It isn’t nearly as awkward as perhaps it might sound, since those whom I outranked had always known me as Sergeant GiftofSchizo.

Now, in the Air Force, the E-9 grade is a whole separate univerise. My very good friend, whom I have known for years–we were staff sergeants together–made CMSgt last year, put the stripe on, and I would never–not in private, not at his house among his family, not at the club, not while running a marathon with him, not anytime ever, ever, ever–refer to him as anything other than Chief (despite his protestations for me to do so). It’s an AF enlisted thing. As they say, even in shower shoes, the chief is the Chief.

GoS

6

Hello, SharkB8; GiftofSchizo here, recently retired AF E-8.

I posted a response to the thread, and only then read that your brother-in-law is a Navy Master Chief (E-9). Believe me, he can answer all your Navy/Coast Guard questions.

To address your concern: if you entered his house and he was sitting there in his uniform, you would just act normally–but the thing is, you should refer to him as “Master Chief” and not Bill or Bob or whatever. It would be a nice gesture for you to simply say “Hey, there, Master Chief” as soon as you see him, and that will let him know that you (1) recognize who and what he is and (2) are able to engage in a professional way.

Other than that, he almost certainly will not be ordering you to do this or that there in his private quarters. On the other hand, if he does–or any of the Navy “Chief” grades (E-7, E-8, or E-9) ever tell you to do something–really, the best, wisest, smartest, most beneficial way to handle this is to simply do as you are asked.

I’ve got a story–when I was an Airman First Class (E-3), I was assigned to a location where among the AF people who worked there, there was a Navy E-9: Master Chief Zimmerman. Great, very kind guy. I was AF, so I didn’t know hardly anything about the Navy, but since AF E-9s are called “Chief” informally, I thought it was okay for me to call him simply “Chief.” And it’s not–in the Navy, “Chief” is the term for an E-7. An E-8 is called “Senior Chief,” and an E-9 is called “Master Chief.”

He let me get away with it a time or two and then pulled me aside and gently, professionally, straightened me out.

Thanks, Master Chief.

GoS

7

…and from the Guard ranks, you get me, an E-6 enlisted aviator. What a different world I live in from the one described above. Not only do I have the ability to refer to everybody, including officers, by their first name (not that I do, mind you), but we all go out together as a crew. I cannot begin to tell you how many times my officers have bought rounds for the crew, and I cannot remember how many times an officer has challenged me to a, shall we say, endurance contest, which I usually win.

This sort of thing is pretty much unknown in the Active Duty, but is relatively common in the Guard. It’s a different world. My superior in the desert may be my subordinate at home. It does happen. We know our jobs, we respect authority, we respect rank, but when not on the clock we have very casual relationships.

My advice: play it by ear. Be respectful, but if they tell you to relax and introduce themselves as So-And-So, take your cue from that. We’re not all uber-authoritarians. And no, we can’t make you get us a beer. I will offer you one as I get up, though.

8

Good evening, Airman Doors; I’ve read many of your great posts, thanks for what you’re doing.

Yeah, the Guard and Reserve–an entirely different animal from the point of view of enlisted/officer relationships, and especially in the aviation (and medical) fields!

I finished my career as a faculty member at the AF SNCOA at Maxwell, and many of the faculty there just couldn’t get their heads around the fact that in the aviation fields, medical, Guard, Reserve, the enlisted/officer thing is different.

I myself was never torqued by this simple fact, but many of my colleagues there was torqued by it, and a couple of the chiefs there–one in particular–made it her business to put a stop to it.

I know for the active-duty flyers, it’s a matter of tradition within that function combined with long periods away from home and family that leads to the muchly increased familiarity between the troops–officer and enlisted–serving as an aircrew, and I’m sure that’s just the same deal in the Guard and Reserve. It’s not a bad thing; it seems to have worked well in the past, and is working well now.

I was a maintainer (NDI guy), and then worked on the AF1 team at Andrews, and then did the AF SNCOA tour, then retired. Once when I was at AF SNCOA, I had an opportunity to go speak at an ALS graduation at Eglin. While I was there, I went by and visited the NDI lab, and it scared the zuzubus out of me! I didn’t recognized a piece of equipment, hardly, in that lab! Well, the technology marches on–I haven’t been a troopie in a lab since…1995?

Anyway, thank you for your service, Airman Doors…GoS.

9

Thanks for all of your answers guys. I probably should’ve specified that I’ll be going into the Coast Guard Reserves.

Spin off questions: My brother-in-law is retired, do I still treat him with the respect of having gone up the ranks? Even though he’s out?

Going back to my niece’s husband. He’s a year younger than I am and not really the type to demand much respect, but say I get out of my car and he’s grilling in the yard (we’re outside) both in uniform, might I salute him? I mean, do I have to?

10

No, you don’t have to salute him. In fact, you shouldn’t.

11

In the Navy, it is “Master Chief”, and I’m not sure whether the Chief Warrant Officers are called “Chief”. Are there any CWO-5s yet in the Navy? Are they “Master Chief Warrant Officer”?

As I understand it, pay grades E-7 through E-9 are the senior NCO grades, and enlisted personnel below E-7 are very aware of their seniors at E-7 and above.

There is also a bit of a bump for E-1 through E-3 versus e-4 through E-6, and some hoo-hah that starts at E-5.

As for the Navy, the CPO community is somewhat distinct from the other services.

Everybody gives the E-9 types a wide birth. especially the most senior of the E-9 people serving as Senior Enlisted Advisors (Command Sergeants Major, Fleet MCPOs, whatever the Hell the title is for the CMSgts).

And I seem to vaguely recall Doors making SSGT at some point - shouldn’t we be calling him SSGT Doors?

As for orders and such, they’re generally restricted to people within the same operational chain of command - people get pissed when other people order their people around?

And I thought that service people were strongly discouraged, if not explicitly ordered to not wear the uniform when off-duty and/or off-base.

12

Technical Sergeant (E-6), actually. I was promoted in September. Next up, Master…about four years from now, if I play my cards right.

13

Active duty AF flyer chiming in to agree with Airman Doors. The flying world is much different than most other active duty. I mean, as an E-2 my first shot was bought by a Staff and my first lapdance from two Majors and a Staff. On duty you call NCOs ‘Sgt so and so.’ When we’re at the bar or whatever (all the flyers hang out. From the FNG to the ones who’ve been there for years) we use first names. Even at work sometimes I’ll use a first name, usually if it’s someone who I knew as an airman. Officers are always officers. Now that I typed that out I realize it doesn’t make much sense, but like said above, it works.

14

Perhaps one of our military posters here would be able to explain what all this (E-4) and (E-6) stuff is?

I assume it’s related to pay grades, but I’ve never heard it used in relation to any of the Commonwealth Military services so I’m guessing it’s an American thing?

15

E-whatever is our pay grade. I’m an E-4, a Senior Airman. An E-3 is an Airman First Class. The other branches have their own names for their ranks.

16

Exactly…pay grades are easier to differentiate ranks between services. An Army Specialist (E-4) may have no idea what a Senior Airman is, but if he knows the Senior Airman is an E-4, he knows they’re the same rank.

Enlisted pay grades go E-1 through E-9, and officer pay grades go O-1 through O-10. I left the Army as an O-3 (Captain). Officer ranks are easier, as the Army, Air Force and Marines all have the same ranks…but O-3 in the Navy is a Lieutenant. Then there’s warrant officer ranks (in the Army WO-1 through CW-5).
Oh, I and I agree…no need to freak out about an E-3 and E-4 after hours…and you wouldn’t salute anyway.

When I was still in the Army, my cousin was an E-3 in the Army reserve. I can say, she never saluted me, and I’d have looked at her strange if she ever had (outside of uniform in a public place…then I’d expect the salute just so other soldiers didn’t feel there was special treatment, though I’d never make her call me ‘sir’ in that situation.)

17

As a former Navy officer, let me correct this misperception. An officer who is saluted is obligated to return the salute.

For what it’s worth, Navy personnel never salute indoors unless under arms and covered (i.e. wearing a hat). Indoor ceremonies, such as change of command ceremonies, may require the participants to be under arms (i.e. swords) and will therefore be covered.

18

Let me put my two cents in, even though the question has been answered, and I know next to nothing about the Coast Guard:

The best advice in this thread so far has been “Play it by ear”. Everybody is different. I’ve seen rank swell up soldiers’ heads until they have small creatures in orbit around them. And I couldn’t care less how you treated me or what you called me, even ON duty, let alone off. As long as you do your job well and do what you’re told, the worst that will happen if you give the wrong courtesies to the wrong person is that you’ll be corrected.

Keep in mind that while there are lots of distinct ranks, there are only a few groups that demand separate types of courtesy. In the Army, it tends to look like this for an enlisted person:

PVT(E1)-SPC(E4) < SGT(E5)-SSG(E6) <SFC(E7)-CSM(E9) < All officers

So there are only about four different groups you would be treating differently, although there is plenty of blurring around the edges. And personal relationships with particular people you know well are always different, which brings us back to square one: Play it by ear.

19

We called Warrants “Mr.”, or more formally “Warrant Officer Smith”. E7-E9 (Chief through Master Chief) in the Navy is a BIG deal. It’s the only service that completely changes uniforms when you make E-7, and it’s a tight community that commands and gets respect.

20

If you ever had seen such a person, you still wouldn’t salute him unless he was the president of a board, in a formation or ceremony of some type, or dishing out money.

There is no regulation or rule suggesting or encouraging the saluting of Medal of Honor recipients. Don’t spread this inaccurate rumor. Correct anyone, anytime you hear it. It’s false.

If you know he’s not in the car, you dont have to salute. You’re saluting the person, not the car. Usually they will put a decal in the window so you know the person is on board.

The same regulations that say you initiate a salute, are the same ones which say he needs to return it. The salute is an exchange or courtesies. It’s not a one sided thing. Not usually, anyway.
In fact, if you notice that the officer has his hands full or could not easily return the salute, you are not required to initiate it. Just give him the greeting of the day.

Also boards and Pay Day Ops. Though all money is direct deposit now, so that’s no longer relevant.