The Nahployment 'Crisis'

Lol. Sometimes a tablet is annoying with weird autocorrect. I meant to say the rise of China.

This is just more of your obfuscatory gibberish. In fact, many strong economies with higher wage floors and better social safety nets than the US have better quality of life for their people as a whole. So there’s really no way that the current US system, or the vastly more deregulated hellscape version of it that you seem to be advocating, is doing “better” than that, unless you’re using “better” merely to mean “producing somewhat more billionaires per capita”.

I see, thanks for the clarification.

I have no idea what the average cost of living means either. Is that the cost for a family of four with a dog living in the suburbs? Or is it the average poor family? We have the poverty line that could be used for a cost of living but it scales based on home many people are in the household?

I don’t see why we should limit it to children. There are lots of adults that can’t fund their basic expenses. Trying to make this part of the emoyeer’s job is just crazy they should be paying the minimum to entice a qualified candidate to take the job. The government should actually care about the welfare of its citizens and be able to study what they need to meet a minimum standard. The more we talk about minimum wages the more it just makes no sense to me.

Have you tried reading any information about it? The calculation of cost-of-living and living-wage levels is indeed a complicated issue, but there are plenty of explanations and discussions of ways to model it and criteria that can be applied to the models.

Wouldn’t that be nice? But until enough of these mealy-mouthed advocates of some vaguely determined level of “government caring about the welfare of its citizens” get off their asses to make something like an adequate universal basic income actually happen, I’m not paying any attention to their demands for an unregulated labor market.

Progressives have been conned too often before by, as I noted, conservatives saying out of one side of their mouths that the government should be looking after the poor rather than requiring employers to pay them adequate wages, and saying out of the other side of their mouths that those worthless dirty thugs of poor people don’t deserve the government looking after them anyway.

Screw that nonsense. Implement adequate governmental safeguards against poverty first, and then we can talk about abolishing mandatory wage floors because nobody is dependent on work to keep them out of poverty anymore.

Do you believe that the minimum wage in any way does that? We’ve had multiple progressives in this thread say it’s better for people to have no job then a job that doesn’t pay enough and that automation is preferable to a high wage. Both are a predictable and seen consequences of a minimum wage and neither do anything for poverty.

It’s funny, I used to be a fan of the minimum wage and tying it to inflation but arguments like yours have shown its just a tool to rile up the base and not accomplish anything.

It’s weird how many conservatives seem to believe that the only sorts of measures the US ought to take in order to push back against competition from China involve decreasing protections and benefits for workers (and the environment too, I guess).

I mean, even aside from the fact that China is actually moving in the direction of providing more protections and benefits for workers, conservatives seem curiously blind to other types of competitive advantages that China has vis-a-vis the US.

Take China’s greater acceptance of governmental authority and regulation, for example. While the US, with a population less than one-third of China’s, has had over 33 million coronavirus cases and is creeping up on 600,000 coronavirus deaths, China has had less than 100,000 cases and less than five thousand deaths. Even if we follow some Sinophobic conspiracy theory recommendation to increase China’s numbers by a (hugely unrealistic) factor of ten to compensate for alleged underreporting, China would still be doing way better than the US at controlling the pandemic and its impacts. Mostly because they obeyed fucking government orders about lockdown and distancing and wore their fucking masks.

Why aren’t these US conservatives who bleat at us about the necessity to strip away worker rights, allegedly so we can be more competitive with China, getting out there to exhort their fellow US conservatives to better compliance with government health protocols, so we can be more competitive with China? Why aren’t they endlessly scolding all those MAGA Proud Patriot Keepers whatever to stop howling about “muh freedumb” to spread a deadly disease by flouting public health measures, and stop spouting nonsense about “tracker chips” in vaccines and whatnot, because their paranoid stupidity is giving China more chances to “patiently and ruthlessly exploit our fundamental weaknesses”?

But no. Sino-alarmist conservatives seem quite happy to tolerate China’s getting the opportunity to “exploit” the “fundamental weakness” of American self-sabotage in pandemic control via dumbass paranoid fellow conservatives throwing toddler tantrums about “government tyranny” when they’re required to wear a mask and practice social distancing. It’s only when it’s US liberals trying to improve the lives of workers, rather than US conservatives deliberately sabotaging public health and trying to overthrow the federal government, that the Sino-alarmists trot out the conservative boogeyman of “we need to be more like China or else China will out-compete us!”

*Poster-verified correction of original text in quote tags, see post #262.

It does it better than having no minimum wage would. Mind you, I am not in any way claiming that the minimum wage as it currently exists, or even the proposed doubling of it to a level more in line with a living wage, would in itself constitute an adequate governmental safeguard against poverty. We’ve got a long way to go in all aspects of that struggle, for sure.

I’m just refusing to fall for the old conservative scam of “let’s get rid of existing regulatory protections first because they’re inadequate and terrible, and then maybe we’ll see about establishing some really good and effective protections. Yup, sure we will. Pinky swear. In fact, two weeks from now you’ll be seeing some really amazing protections. They’re very, very good, a lot of people are saying so.”

Every place is different from every other place in the world.

Yes, Bono’s comments should not be taken as an absolute statement of national economic policy. But point of fact, Ireland is actually considered one of the more socialist countries. Right up there with places like Denmark and Finland.

But there’s still plenty of Irish people who want that mansion. And you can find ‘soak the rich’ types with guillotines here in the capitalist USA.

I’ll end here to make sure it’s not a hijack. I’ve definitely learned that most artists are full of it when it comes to their social commentary

Per hour, yes, assuming that they are doing the same work.

However, the single guy doesn’t need to work as many hours to pay his bills, so can have more time for other pursuits.

Yes, we have a seriously problem of weird behavior in the US. Anti mask, anti vaccine, pro smashing stuff up. I’m not sure how to fix that. But it seems non unemployment/economically related to me.

Have you tried telling the perpetrators that they need to quit that shit or else big bad China will out-compete us with their superior ability to cooperate as a team for the good of their nation as a whole, rather than pitching toddler tantrums that their pwecious fweedom is being destroyed by the comparatively minor inconvenience of following public health protocols?

Because, in case you couldn’t tell, I find it rather suspect that all these doom-laden prophecies about how China’s gonna “ruthlessly exploit our fundamental weaknesses” only get trotted out when the alleged “fundamental weakness” in question is American liberals’ efforts to support workers. Not when the “fundamental weakness” is the tendency of American conservatives to melt down into delusional paranoia and egotistical aggression when confronted with a bad situation that we all need to work together to solve.

In short, I’m bringing up this phenomenon of conservative antisocial behavior in a thread on labor policy because I think it illustrates that your attempted arguments on the subject of labor policy invoking Chinese competition aren’t consistent or well thought out. They’re just an attempt to scare liberals away from supporting labor policies that conservatives don’t like.


Not at all. It’s because they are relevant to this topic. Not the topic of wearing a mask. Different topics get different examples. It makes sense to talk about relative demand for labor, employment, and how workers and industries adapt to artificial wage floors and trillions of stimulus dollars in a thread on folks who would rather not take a job.

Critiquing anti vaxxers or the Chinese treatment of Uighurs is not relevant. And no, focusing on the relevant comparisons is no special insight into the so-called conservative mind.

(Hint: they raised starting wages by 50% or more.)



Funny how this article which dealt with minimum wage issues completely missed China’s role in all this.

But couldn’t the same be said of “need based”? What is “need”?

If I happen to live in a home with a $3000k/mo mortgage, isn’t my “need” higher than someone living with a roommate paying $400/mo in rent?

I don’t see how you can write off the concept of “living wage”, which I concede, as do most, is a tricky, imperfect and imprecise concept, particularly as you broaden your scope to encompass larger communities or a whole nation, while advocating “need based” aid, which is a concept that suffers from the exact same imperfections and localizations.

The thing that drives me nuts about “don’t want to work” is when it applies to teachers - who are in most states paid a pittance for a difficult job, but when they dare ask to be paid decently, are told they must not care for the children. These are not low skilled jobs. We don’t only do this with low skilled labor, we do this for any labor that we discount because its generally done by women, the poor and of course, POC. (Discounting entertainment and sports). And not surprisingly, guess where we have another labor shortage? And we do it because we don’t want to pay another $.50 for our Big Mac or a 10% increase on our property taxes, but paying $100 for a football ticket or paying for Tim Cook’s salary with an $800 phone is fine with us.

As opposed to not having to pretend to feel compassionate at all? :thinking:

Can we dispense with the notion that the “labor market” as conceived by conservatives, libertarians, followers of Ayn Rand, and others isn’t complete bullshit? It’s largely based off of the simple supply and demand diagrams for perfectly competitive markets everyone is taught in Econ 101 to explain the basics of market forces. And people end up extrapolating it to believe that “more money = my skills are valuable to society / less money = lazy POS”. These simple charts do not address the reality of the various nuances and complexities of an advanced economy. And this thinking is simply a form of elitism that let’s people believe that because they had the fortune to go to the right schools and land the right sort of job, they are somehow inherently “better”.

I guess I would find the “labor market distortion” argument more compelling if the people who owned the businesses didn’t always reap the economic benefits of outsourcing, downsizing, mergers, automation, and other effects of the “labor market”.

You do realize that not every article on a topic is going to be identical?

I don’t consider one’s current set of bills, debts, or standard of living needs. Shelter, food, and water are basic needs.

Anyways, I just find it odd that Marx and JFK would be considered heartless conservatives based on their expectation that folks participate in society and don’t just take from society.