Actually, there was no rape involved. Try looking up “consensual” in the dictionary sometime. It’s an important distinction to many with an interest in that whole rape issue.
Yes, indeedy. Also, a couple of series over there called “The Bill” and “Hollyoaks” have had some very nice scenes lately. And closer to home, a Canadian series called “Crime En Serie” had an ep called “Le Disciple” that matched and in some respects far exceeded the imagery of “Saving Grace.”
(wet blanket)
Well, as a prudish person, I still find the whole borederline nonconsensual aspects of bondage a little icky. Kind of a “no, but yes” kind of thing.
It’s also a common theme in Japanese dojinshi (more specifically the ones where sex is either implied or straight porn), especially when the “bottom” is portrayed as a wide-eyed, underaged waif. (For whatever reason, the submissive member of the party can’t be portrayed as enjoying the sex, because then he/she would then be a whore. :rolleyes: )
(/wet blanket)
Edited for clarity.
BTW, tomorrow night (Thursday Sept. 20th) at 11 pm EST, TNT is repeating the ep of Saving Grace in question.
Dude, you of all people should understand that bondage = rape fantasy: it’s two people consenting to pretend they’re acting out a non-consensual situation. Ergo, rape as entertainment. Squick.
That’s domination, not bondage. And even then, that doesn’t have to be a pretend non-consensual thing either. You can be very happily and eagerly bound up, thank you.
Er, no. Not even close.
Um, yeah. Not even gray area. “Let’s *pretend *you’re having sex with me against my will.” How is that not a rape fantasy? I’m not arguing that it’s not consensual, when it’s, well, when it’s consensual. I’m saying it’s a consensual rape fantasy. 1:1.
This is untrue. Most people who enjoy bondage like it for itself, not because they are fantasizing about rape while they do it.
Bondage is its own entity. If rape did not exist, bondage would still exist.
This is insane. Bondage = restraint = removal of consent. IRL, it’s called rape; when you pretend, it’s called “bondage.” But what you’re pretending, denial aside, is rape. I have no political objection to people doing this among consenting adults, or anything like that; I just think you should call it what it is. Is all.
Bondage isn’t my thing, but it’s quite simple to see that giving up control to your partner is not the same thing as pretending to give up consent. In other words, you can enjoy the thrill of having someone else run the show without it being a fantasy that you’re being taken against your will.
Maybe that’s not how you would perceive the experience, but don’t dismiss what others are telling you about what they get from it.
I never feel a really conscious reaction to such scenes on TV, and obviously I’m in no position to comment on my own subconscious. But I know when such scenes do occur I tend to see them as artifice; they destroy the suspension of disbelief, because they seem so contrived and artificial. I really don’t know how common bondage is IRL, but it couldn’t possibly be as common as its portrayals on TV are. And that annoys me on some level. It strikes me as artistic laziness, as if the producers think if they tie some woman up I’m naive enough to be scandalized. Give me a break.
Is it?
This reminds me of an old Margaret Atwood short story, “Rape Fantasies.” A group of women are discussing their rape fantasies (being taken forcefully in various places by strong attractive men), and another woman gives her take on it–brutally attacking a man who attempts to rape her.
When I often see things that people like to do in fantasy life, either by talking to them/observing them, or watching scenes from movies, it’s pretty striking how different it is from actual rape/sex, which are pretty damned unsexy. People may have rape fantasies, but saying that what they’re acting out is rape is kind of like saying that that being a pirate = looking like Johnny Depp (and talking like Keith Richards).
Thanks; I’ve made this point several times.
Now who’s being obtuse?
I could probably count on one hand the number of TV shows that have taken this tack after ratings have declined. I’d hardly call that common.
And the Law and Order episode you’re referring to was actually a man tied up and raped in his office. The rapist used a banana (which did not get any screen time).
It’s not even giving up control. Anyone who’s sane who does bondage has a “safe word” that ends whatever is going on, or at least will be able to simply say “stop” and have it end.
If someone tells his or her partner to tie them up and have sex with them, and they both do so eagerly and happily and have lots of fun and orgasms, that’s nothing like rape fantasy.
I freaking know what rape is, and get squicked out by rape fantasy, but to each their own in that respect. However, there’s no comparison between consensual, fun bondage and playing out a rape fantasy. You can use the former to carry out the latter but the latter is not in any way a required element for the former.
Do you believe the people that enjoy bungee jumping and parachuting are having suicide fantasies? There’s a thousand and one ways to enjoy bondage and sure plenty of them involve indirectly or directly the aura of rape fantasies but to tag it all as rape fantasies is frankly ignorant.
Some enjoy the power exchange. Some enjoy the teasing aspects of it (you think tying someone down and tickling them with feathers or feeding them various sweet and sour objects while you both laugh is related to rape?) some enjoy the feeling of being ‘dirty’ while being controlled by another so they can indulge in something but feel less responsible for it. Some enjoy the feeling of trust and total surrender. And hell some people just like pain. Reminds me of an old quote that claims ‘all sex is violent’ because it involves penetration an inherently violent act and if you agree with that then there’ll be no common ground here to even have a debate.
The show gets repeated tonight; now I’ve got another reason to tape it. Holly Hunter is a li’l trouper, isn’t she?
Lissener, I’m not into bondage, but know enough to know you’re quite wrong about this. There’s overlap between bondage and rape fantasies (which a lot of women have, and which have nothing to do with real rape), but they can exist independently.
I was all the way on the anti-lissener train here, right up until the end.
Which is one way that it is like a rape fantasy.
If you’re using a safe word, then you are engaging in arape fantasy. Otherwise, “no” or “stop” would be sufficient.
Anyway, lissener, my neighbor is way way into bondage, and used to do it as performance art about ten years ago. There may be non-consensual stuff going on, but for people who are into it, it’s all about the tying up. I mean they can talk about what sorts of restraints they use, what sort of knots they tie, where exactly on the body the restraints go, etc. It’s a kink all by itself.
> CRACK! < ::: Moderator cracks whip for attention 
:::
I’m going to draw a somewhat nebulous line in the sand. This forum is about art and entertainment. The discussion therefore needs to stay on issues related to art/entertainment. The question of whether rape or bondage can be “entertainment” or “art” is fair game for this forum, as are questions about how artists/entertainers might exploit such.
However, the question of whether bondage and rape are interconnected, and the psychological implications thereof, belong in Great Debates forum. I admit it’s a somewhat fuzzy line, but I think y’all get the drift.