I’m going to remember “invisible norms”.
There are some wonderful posts in this thread, but will self-absorbed Shagnasty learn from them? Of course not.
This still doesn’t conflict with any of the points made so far. Who the hell are you arguing with? It appears you’re saying that white females, overall, are the most privileged – I might disagree with this, but it doesn’t conflict with the main points I’ve made. You clearly acknowledge privilege exists, and that white privilege exists, and all you’re quibbling with appears to be whether women benefit more from privilege than men.
If so, then you named your thread wrong. You should have named it “male privilege is complete bullshit”. You appear to agree that white privilege is decidedly not bullshit.
You are not wrong either but you are still thinking too narrowly. If I went to black churches in my home area in Louisiana, I would be in the minority and I have done that (no - I don’t need a medal; I wanted to go for people I cared about). If I went to Japan, I would encounter some serious xenophobia.
I am not arguing with you directly. We are just talking along parallel lines.
My main point is that “white male privilege” isn’t some universal thing and all relationships are context specific. Given that, it isn’t something that is even worth bringing up unless you know that it applies to any individual and circumstance.
Everyone has some form of privilege in our society. Not just whites. Does that mean I’m negating “white privilege”? No. But it also means I’m not choosing to ignore other racial privileges.
But, what is ultimately more important than racial privilege is class privilege. I tend to think these racial squabbles are a distraction by the media to keep us divided and not thinking about how the Big Man is fucking over The Little Man. They’d rather us fight and hate each other because of race, than unite and call them out on their shit.
There will never be any progress toward a more egalitarian society unless all races come together and realize that while each of us may occupy different positions on the boat because of our respective races, we are all ultimately in the same boat.
A rich person like Donald Trump, while he may offer verbal sympathy to the White Supremacists, cares as much about them as he does anyone else. A poor white means just as little to a rich person as a poor black man. Both are there to be exploited in different ways and used as labor.
All of us are getting the shaft, where race comes in his simply how getting the shaft effects us differently. But make no mistake: We’re all getting fucked. Just in different positions based on race.
But no one is claiming that it’s “universal”. It’s just powerful and significant in America. Chances are, most, if not all, white people have benefited at some point in their lives from white privilege, even if they’ve had plenty of other struggles due to a lack of some other privilege (e.g. wealth privilege, health privilege, education privilege, class privilege, etc.).
Shag - I think you need to divorce the idea of your personal experience and consider the meta experience of whole populations when thinking about privilege. In this thread you’ve kept going back to personal experience. That’s not useful when discussing privilege.
I do believe white male privledge exists. I also think the narrative around it is often counter productive in raising awareness and reducing its impact.
“How things affect me is how they affect everyone. What I see is what everyone sees. How I am treated is how everyone is treated.” Those are the “invisible norms.”
I would argue the opposite, in fact. I would argue that white privilege is a real thing, a big, near-universal thing, in countries where white people are a minority, but it is not so much a thing in white-*majority *Western countries like the USA.
White people have been hired for English-teaching jobs in Asia even when their English was significantly worse than an Asian applicant for the same job (i.e., a German woman who spoke broken English vs. a Taiwanese-American who was fluent in English.) White people used to be treated akin to mini-celebrities in many parts of Asia up until maybe a decade ago, would have locals proposing marriage to them in Africa (although I believe that had more to do with wanting that US passport’s benefits than skin color,) would often be put on a pedestal by locals themselves, especially Asian women for white men.
Whites would be paid more in Asia for doing the same job, in fact, turning in a lousier work performance, than locals doing the same work, just due to being white and Westernized. If a white person is kidnapped in, say, Vietnam or South Korea, it would probably get 100x more media attention (local and global) than a local Vietnamese or Korean person getting abducted. And the percentage of brown-skinned children in the world who, if asked, “Would you rather be a brown or white person?” would rather be white, probably far exceeds the vice-versa percentage of white-skinned children who would say they’d rather be brown.
White privilege is indeed a thing in much of the world, but it’s *less *so in America, where whites are the majority.
I don’t think that’s very fair. Shagnasty has conducted himself quite nicely in this thread and argued from a place of honesty. And he’s not alone; many people feel accused by the term “white male privilege”.
He may not change his mind because of this, but I feel safe in saying he’s learned something!
mc
I respect your opinion and will honestly take it under consideration. I also think that most are presenting the idea very poorly except for a few in this thread (and I am listening contrary to popular belief). I can promise you that I not trolling or anything like that. I am just trying to understand. I am a reasonably smart person so, if I can’t get it, the average person won’t be able to either.
The Left has an incredibly bad branding problem with their incestuous and circular ideas. This is one of them. There may be some truth to it but it takes way to much work to find out what that is. I just try to be nice to everyone without overthinking it and dividing people along race/class/sex/gender/political lines. That seems to work fairly well.
Racism and sexism are hard. They are deeply embedded in our culture.
The idea that you can deal with them in your personal life by trying to be a nice person and not doing a lot of work is a fantasy. And it is a fantasy particularly common among white men.
If you want to face these topics with open eyes, and not contribute to the problem, you have to do the work. There is no shortcut.
At the risk of beating the “This is why Trump got elected” dead horse, I think this is much of the problem summed-up. There are many valid points or issues raised by the Left - but the Left raises these issues in a way that is antagonizing rather than uniting. It’s as if every problem has to have a blame-able villain, a target to go after.
In 2016, the Left learned that the “villain” happened to reside in swing states and have the right to vote.
Blaming an overdetermined result that could easily have come out the other way on poliical ideas you find threatening is lazy thinking.
Maybe Democrats should surrender and go back to using white identity politics. But if so, 2017 does not prove that.
There’s inherent privilege to being in the numerical majority. Even if white people didn’t occupy disproportionately more positions of power in American society than other groups, they would still have an advantage by virtue of being in the group with the most numbers.
For instance, let’s accept that the saying “everyone is a little racist” is true. Furthermore, let’s assume that this “little racism” is manifested behaviorally by everyone. Even given these things, your average white person will still be less affected by racism than your average non-white person. To whit, your average white person can pick a neighborhood randomly and only have to worry X amount about encountering a racist, while your average non-white person will tend to worry more than X amount since they are more likely to encounter someone who hates their group. A white person who tells a non-white person that their extra worry is silly is oblivious to the fact that racism doesn’t affect everyone the same. His or her privilege keeps him from understanding this because they haven’t lived it.
To address the OP: I’m still trying to figure out if there’s a chance your posts are completely satirical. Because that’s the only way they make sense to me.
You don’t know what extra hurdles your non-white male colleagues have had to jump over or the extra tests they’ve been subjected to. I don’t think even the most hardcore progressive would say that the only way to get into positions of power is to be a white male, so you’re arguing a strawman.
That may be the result but it’s not the intention. Pointing out “straight white male privilege” is not intended to demonize anyone, it’s meant to point out that this is the way it should work for everybody; everybody should be able to go through life without the burdens of race or sex or religion or whatever. And, as a group, straight white males are out in front in that regard. There’s no need to take any of that away from them. the point is to remember to try and find a way so that everyone has that same privilege. It’s about trying to lift up others not pull down you.
mc
It comes off like having an original sin that Marxists want you to hate yourself for. Want to change the reaction? Change the messaging.
When you fight against white supremacy and misogyny with your white male friends and colleagues, what messaging do you use?
Understand, some of us have been having this conversation with him dor nearly TWENTY YEARS. Grrrrr/Shakes has learned a ton. Shagnasty? The conversation has stalled here.