Did someone say that? All declarative-like in that way?
You do realize that that amounts to a demand for an echo chamber? “If you want to be taken seriously, agree with us”.
Or, I dunno, disagree with evidence rather than “Nuh-uh!”?
I’m way past this, but maybe you can tell me how this guy qualifies as a “Nice Guy” in any way, shape or form? Nice guys seem to be not aggressive enough to even make their intentions clear. They typically are not seeing someone. They are definitely not cheating on an SO. Plenty of men try, get shot down, and then complain, but that is different. Newt Gingrich is not a “nice guy.”
Aha! The best definition so far.
Being a nice guy has nothing to do with opening doors. I (and lots of other people) do that as a matter of habit. I think the “nice guy” opens the doors thinking that this sends of a subtle signal to a woman saying he is interested in her. He sends off lots of subtle signals. He never gets it up to actually ask her on a date or anything. And then he is pissed at a guy who isn’t nice, and who does.
Perhaps it is fear of rejection. But a of it seems the male equivalent of batting ones eyelashes and sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring.
I don’t remember this conversation back when I was in high school and men were expected to call. If I liked a girl and wanted something to happen I called her. Period. I think the present system is better in a lot of ways, but it lets some guys feeb out and blame the woman.
Honestly, I am really confused about all the “friend zone” hate. It would be lying to say that all of my opposite gender friendships started off because I was looking for just a friend. Some of them did start that way, but not all of them. I have developed a few true friendships that started out because I was interested in something more that never happened. Of course, I would not call our relationships the friend zone now unless I was joking.
Some of the posters here think that guys that were interested in relationships at first are just sticking around waiting to get let in but that is not always (or usually) the case. Most people I know that seriously use the phrase “friend zone”, have no interest in really being friends with these girls and it shows.
Being open and yet clear about your intentions is acting nice, and I doubt many women would consider this evil. Which is different from accepting an invitation. My daughters never thought ill of men who were interested and said so, and never thought these people were being obnoxious. Not even ones they were not the slightest bit interested in.
BTW, my observation is that young women today are way beyond being offended at having doors help open for them. When I was in college, at the dawn of women’s liberation, it was a lot more common, but there was a lot more obnoxiousness for them to react to.
It’s difficult to compress a three year long friendship into a handful of points that allows another person to rate things just as accurately. Will you take my word that the former friend was almost completely passive-aggressive? That the person in question was a . . . subspecies of Nice Guy, shall we say?
He acted like he was fine with the idea of just being friends, and he encouraged me to depend on him emotionally. During those projects I mentioned, because we were spending a lot of time together, his girlfriend assumed we were sleeping together and told our mutual friends. He was, apparently, happy to let them believe it. I didn’t know about this until much later. I readily admit that I was humiliatingly naive, and having friends explain what they thought was obvious was almost as painful as who I thought my friend was evaporating in front of my eyes.
If I’d been stupid enough to fall for him on the first try, I have no doubt he would have dumped his girlfriend on the spot. She was the female equivalent of the Nice Guy - willing to manipulate him with sex, guilt, or scorn, treating their relationship like a merit badge (the “I Have A MAN!” badge), and staying in an relationship with a man who didn’t really seem to like her. I found out later that their six or seven year long relationship was the result of a one-night stand he just couldn’t shake.
The two times he propositioned me (and it wasn’t a ‘oh, I so want to be in a relationship with you’, it was a ‘we’re friends, right? We should fuck. If you don’t let me fuck you, you’re not really my friend’) were actually . . . I think . . . an attempt to get a romantic relationship going, figuring that if he got his penis inside of me, I would fall in love with him. At no time was he willing to take the risk of shedding his girlfriend and actually asking to be my boyfriend.
The whole thing was a trainwreck. Looking back, he was totally in the mode of ‘maybe if I help her move, she’ll love me,’ ‘maybe if I’m her bestest buddy ever, she’ll love me,’ ‘maybe if I convince her that sex is a part of friendship and she actually has sex with me, she’ll love me’. I have never regretted cutting every tie to him.
[Bolding mine]
Bingo.
Is there really no escape from this?
Many years ago, when I was at the dawn of adolescence, I took a look around at the behaviors that dominated the dating scene, from those of peers to those of the adults I knew, and saw that the bulk of them consisted of lies, deceit, anger, frustration and paranoia. I decided, then and there, that the world of romance was not for me. Since then, not a day has gone by that I haven’t been more convinced than the day before that I made the right decision.
A subsection of society engages in the behavior the posters above me have defined, which annoys the spit out of women. We all fall back on our traditional habit of Bitch, Moan, and Complain, but let’s not kid ourselves: it’s not doing any good. It relieves our frustration momentarily, but it doesn’t keep it from happening again, and it annoys our sympathetic friends and well-wishers who are absolutely unable to get away from it if it’s spread even to this forum, and if we don’t knock it off, they’re eventually going to cave our heads in with a tire iron. So let’s try something new. Empathy, maybe. Why do these guys DO this?
It’s not actually irrational at all; the logic is just misapplied. Most of these women want a guy who follows certain behavioral patterns we’ll call “Nice”. These guys want these women, so they decide to adopt these patterns. Then, when they learn the truth, that these women don’t simply want men who follow the patterns to achieve a goal, but do so inherently, these guys follow the mental track of “it’s easy for a naturally nice person to be nice; it’s harder for a person who isn’t. Surely, when she realizes how far I’m willing to change my behavior for her, she’ll appreciate me all the more”, rather than “I’m not what she’s looking for romantically; I should look elsewhere”. When they’re delicately rebuffed, they don’t think “she’s trying to space my feelings”, they think “she’s not *strongly * opposed”. Inaccurate? Yes. Illogical? No.
They see this as a breach of the socio-behavioral contract: you’ve stated what you wanted, they (to an extent they think sufficient) have provided it. Entitlement has nothing whatsoever to do with it, any more than it does with you wanting a paycheck after you’ve worked for it.
The way most of these guys go about seeking romance is ineffectual, immature, and annoying, but so is hopping on facebook or this or one of another thousand forums to complain about it. A truce in the battle of the sexes may be impossible, but don’t let it be for lack of trying.
If not for your own sake, then for that of my tire iron budget.
Yeah, I’m going to regret this… 
Have you read the thread? The examples proffered so far consist of women who have perfectly decent boyfriends, or are single. It’s the sense of bitterness and entitlement that are a turn-off, here. Along with unrealistic expectations that compatibility matters less than how hawt the woman is. A guy could be an Adonis, and these traits would still be a turn-off. Hell, for what it’s worth, I DID meet (online only, never got to a face-to-face, thank god) an Adonis who, as it turned out, was VERY bitter and entitled and absolutely livid that I didn’t jump straight to “I’m your girlfriend” immediately even before we’d met in person. I didn’t date him; I was, in fact, quite relieved to find this out so early on so I didn’t end up wasting any more time. His looks were not a factor in this decision, but his attitudes and behavior sure were.
I mean, you can make up fictional examples all you want, but they have far less to contribute to the discussion at hand than the real-life examples do.
No one has condemned anyone who is genuinely decent. This thread is not about them. It is about Nice Guys 
, the ones who vociferously declare to all and sundry that they’re Nice, but are not, actually. It’s a specific phenomenon under discussion, not all men everywhere, ever.
I’m honestly a bit baffled that you seem to think that it’s not both simultaneously most of the time, rather than “it’s a bit of both” being the exception rather than the rule. Consider, when is a good friendship worth risking? When you’re already head over heels. The motivation for risk is MUCH lower when you’re not romantically inclined toward someone. Have you ever turned down a date with someone you were really into, just because you didn’t want to risk the friendship? And if you’ve already been friends for a while, and the sparks aren’t flyin’, the odds that sparks will manifest just because you declared yourselves to be dating are pretty small.
More to the point, if someone tells you no thanks, regardless of the reason, why would someone torment themselves by doing anything other than moving on? It doesn’t freaking matter why she said no, it only matters that she said it. If you think a certain subset of reasons might indicate she’ll be open to a relationship (or a banging) later, you’re being unrealistic, and not really healthy. It’s not a good idea to live your life on “maybes” instead of going out there and being proactive rather than passively waiting for something that ain’t gonna happen. Who wants to live with the angst of “but it MIGHT happen SOMEDAY” instead of just focusing on 1> the good things they do have and 2> meeting someone who will, actually, in the present and not some unknown and uncertain future, want to be with you?
Except that they’re not just describing a behavior, they’re going beyond that to draw conclusions about men’s thoughts and motivations; something they have not been in a place to experience first hand.
Der Trihs, I really like you. I think you’re pretty smart, obviously passionate, and meticulous with both your arguments and grammar. But.
First, where in the world are you white knights getting the idea that women routinely go for men who beat them and cheat on them? Hint, we aren’t. Abuse is rare. If you find yourself repeatedly consoling an abused woman, you might explore the idea that she is exaggerating the conflict in her life in an attempt to pit two rivals against one another in order to plump up her own ego. Of, if a nice guy finds himself repeatedly in a situation wherein he truly believes the girl of his dreams is locked in an abusive relationship, he really ought to reconsider his own fantasies and preferences. Sure, having the chance to be the hero who rescues a damsel in distress is a common literary theme, but if that guy is convinced that all desirable women are virgins possessed by dragons, well… he has other issues that won’t be resolved by getting laid.
*Thug *is your word, and presumably your perception. I like outdoorsy guys; athletes. They drink a little beer, raise a little hell, roughhouse with each other, and take little if any shit off people who attempt to control their lives. My personality matches well. Sure, we argue, and sometimes they eat at Hooters, talk too loud and share a little too much about their sex lives. The men I’m attracted to could stand to be a little more refined. But thugs? That’s a judgment call only a particularly sensitive, self-righteous “nice guy” would make.
You mean friendship? Well, I’m not particularly interested in screwing my girlfriends, either, and I’ve initiated several relationships with female humans, too.
Women have been consistent with explaining that the *self-proclaimed *nice guy is not the same animal as an *actual *nice guy, and lamented the turn of phrase that indicates the oxymoron. The guy who belittles the woman he desires for her choice in partners is not a nice guy. The hostile guy who is angry about being considered a friend: not nice. The judgmental, condescending dude who pronounces every man who isn’t passive and obliging as an abuser, a dick, or a jock isn’t a nice guy. The embittered man who is angry that his manipulative, deliberate favors aren’t resulting in sex… well, he’s a douche.
Let me re-word that one for you. If they act nice they are great friends and all around awesome people; and if they have an ulterior motive for acting nice, they are scum.
Which is a really crucial point. These are the guys who are absolutely uninterested in the companionship aspects of a relationship. It’s more like they view the woman they’re passively “pursuing” as trophies rather than people. It’s about status, not relationship.
I’m going to venture a guess that some of the guys posting here are sticking for life with experiences they’ve had with teenaged girls. I was one, and I’m ashamed to admit that the drama was higher in those days before I knew who I was. More than one guy vying for my attention was exciting, and I wasn’t above entertaining the attention of more than one guy until I’d settled on one I felt actual love for. Teenaged years were wrought with drama, turmoil, hard decisions, and wicked growing pains. To the guys I rejected who were vying for my attention: sorry about that. I didn’t know who I was, what type of guy I was attracted to, or what I wanted out of life. So… sorry if I misled you. I didn’t know who I was or what I wanted, either.
But don’t count my apology as some victory or acknowledgement of your present angst because you were guilty of the same goddamn drama, competition, and indecision. You postured, you swelled up and stretched, stomped around, punched lockers, cussed, threatened others. You promised the moon to 14 year old girls when you had not a penny of your own. You penned overwrought poetry, made mixed tapes, gave us promise rings and named our future kids. You were just as hormone drunk as we were. But if you are over 20 now, for heaven’s sake… let it go. Respect people for what they have achieved. When women tell you who they are: listen to them. Understand that while the opposite sex may have a very desirable warm spot between her legs, she’s just as human as you are and just as worthy of respect. No matter how badly you desire her, no matter how certain you are that you could make her happy, no matter how negatively you view her choice in partners: the decision is hers. You have exactly, precisely, unarguable the same amount of power. Go make your own decisions.
I’ve never been “friendzoned” because when a woman isn’t interested I move on. I don’t mount a campaign to wear down her resistance or change her mind.; I don’t get “stuck” anywhere.
Well, once I didn’t, but as I recall, even at the time I realized my behaving that way was my choice, not hers.
Often times, people complain about how they get stuck in the “dreaded” friend-zone. My question is, is it really impossible to escape the friend-zone? Is there really indeed, no way to get into a romantic relationship with the person in question after getting friend-zoned?
Great advice. You’ll never be mistaken for a nice guy again!
If a woman wants to date you, she’ll date you barring some external factor (moving cross-country in a week, mental complex, whatever).
If a woman has decided that you’re, at best, friend material there’s nothing you can do about it. That doesn’t mean that the day will never ever come where she wants to date you, people change, develop different tastes, and shit happens. What people here are saying is that that day is never guaranteed to come, and there’s strikingly little you can do to help it along, so why worry about it and live in the fantasy universe of the future when you can find somebody who actually does want to date you NOW.
ETA: Which isn’t to say there’s nothing you can do to improve your chances. But they’re the same things that are going to improve your chances of getting a date with women in general: stay in shape, have hobbies, etc.
Thanks; it all makes sense now.