I thought Lance was in position to win stages, but gracefully allowed others to get their moment in the spotlight. Pinache or sans pinache, that’s pretty classy.
Yeah, I’ve seen him purposefully give up stages this Tour.
And it’s “panache.” Yes, I’m a nitpicking pedant. No, I’m not likely to change. Love me anyway.
Name one! Seriously, name even one stage where Armstrong has said in a post race interview “Yeah, I coulda won that stage but I decided to let so and so take the win”. Remember, the Yellow Jersey wearer always has to give a post stage press conference - it comes with the territory. Not once has Armstrong said anything even remotely in keeping with your assertion. And to do such a thing would be the height of arrogance. It’s on a par with Schumacher patronisingly pulling over on the final lap to let Barichello take a win.
Indeed, on the stages where Armstrong would have normally been expected to win by exerting his force, attacks have gone up the road. And they’ve gone up the road way, way before the end - as in over a 100km from the end. It’s not just Team Discovery’s job at that point to make a race of it you know. There’s no way you can say that someone is deliberately choosing to let someone else have a win on days like that. Sure, it’s a part of strategy - but it has nothing to do “graciously letting a competitor” have a day of glory. The only time that such a thing COULD be argued, hypothetically, is the stage where Valverde did him in a sprint to the top of Courcheval. But that was a win, fair and square, to the young Spaniard.
To be fair, Lance Armstrong has finished in 2nd place 3 times this tour - and he’s done it when it counted. But other than that, he hasn’t had to figure at all. His best other results are Stage 15 where he was 7th, and on Stage 11 he was 6th. My point is this - when you’re in Yellow, you don’t win the Tour de France, you lose it. Armstrong is ensuring he doesn’t lose the Tour by doing what he’s doing.
That being said, I don’t know what Tour you’re watching, but to my eyes, that’s a total pro simply doing all that he needs to do to win a tour - but nowhere am I seeing a guy who’s giving away stage wins. On the 3 occasions he’s come 2nd, he’s been beaten fair and square. Your assertion Ogre is one that we’re simply going to have to agree to disagree on - which is cool, we’re all friends here.
I’ve heard people elsewhere on the net suggest that Armstrong deliberately underpedalled in the ITT on Stage One to lose to Dave Zabriske. Again, that’s all speculative hogwash. Every second counts in stage racing. Every second. Nobody gives away an ITT win if they could have gone faster. It’s not professional.
Like BBF said, not this tour.
Stage 1, he dug deep to get by Ullrich, but he didn’t phone it in to give it to Zabriskie.
THe stage he finished with Valverde. . .you cold run that 10 times and Valverde takes it every time.
But, I still think he’s put out some effort. No one was concerned about Rasmussen on the stage he won, and that could have been Lance’s.
He could have won yesterday’s stage if Disco wanted to work, but with Hincapie in the break, that wasn’t going to happen. He still might win one Tuesday, and he’ll almost definitely win the final ITT.
No doubt about it, though, this win is looking like a cold, efficient execution.
I have a question.
The racing numbers on the riders backs, are they set by last years results; this year’s time trials or what?
Last years winner gets numer 1.
Then, his teammates get 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.
Then the “leader” of each team get’s the ‘1’ for his “tens place” and his team gets the rest. I’m not sure how thye sort that out. Maybe alphabetically.
So, Ullrich would get 11, and his teammates get 12, 13, 14, etc.
Some other guy would get 51 and his team, 52, 53, 54, etc.
I’m also not sure how they determine which team gets the 10’s, the 20’s, the 30’s etc.
As happy as I am to see big George get his first stage win in the TdF, I’m also a little disappointed in how he went about it. Unless the coverage completely misrepresented his participation in the breakaway, Hincapie almost never pulled as part of the breakaway group. He let guys burn their legs out and took the win in the end but I don’t think he did his fair share. Correct me if I’m wrong on that.
Lance let Basso roll across the line first. Beating him would not have improved Lance’s standing but I think he could have beat him to the line just the same. I think Lance does have a lot of class. Ivan did most of the work in that last climb as far as attacking and Lance just stayed on his wheel. Only fair to have Ivan Basso cross the line ahead of him.
The way the announcers were played it, Hincappie had to save himself in case the Armstrong group caught up. If they did, then Discovery would have a great advantage. He (Hincappie) wasn’t expecting to win, he was just doing his job.
Of course, the question is at what point did he or Team Discovery know that the Armstrong group wouldn’t catch up, and that he should’ve started pulling his share?
I really felt bad for the other guy (Periero?), who really worked his ass off.
Indeed, an even more juicy situation is when a potential threat gets away in a break and a team mate of the Yellow Jersey wearer is in the break. There’s a tactic known as “blocking” where you deliberately trade turns but “under pedal” to slow the speed of the break down. I’ve had to do that in the past and it’s a brave thing to do. I’ve copped punches in the face for it.
I’d say it was profoundly obvious by the summit of the penultimate climb. They had 7 minutes on the Armstrong group at tha point with 22km to go - of which 13km was descent. Hincapie traded turns on the descent and followed the right wheels on the Pla d’Adet.
Bottom line? On a Hors Category mountain finish, you gotta be able to put yourself there at the end to have a chance of winning. Unlike on the flat, following a wheel is more psychological than it is empirical, so Hincapie deserved that stage win, no doubts.
Actually, that raises a question I’ve always had about breakaways on hills. There is obviously no drag aid there, so why is it that the peloton so often catches a 3- or 5- or 8-man breakaway?
Is it just purely pyschological, in that you trade off in the front just to keep the pace going, that trading off will keep someone in the front who is “psychologically” faster, thus keeping the pace up?
Why would, with no wind-blocking effect in place, a peloton catch a breakaway?
Coz most often, the peloton is where the really fucking fast guys are! 
Although, on the occasions that the really fucking fast guys are already in the break, then no way are they gonna get caught on a long climb. They’ll actually extend their lead.
Think of it this way - it’s all about the “cream rising to the top” at the business end of the race. You don’t want to shoot your gunpowder too early. Use your teammates and all that stuff. If there are 3 or 4 serious climbs on the day, the leaders might already be clearly established by the summit of one of the earlier climbs. At that point, they’re gone… long gone. No way the peloton’s gonna catch them.
But if a break goes earlier in the day? And it’s full of opportunists? And not established leaders? Eh… it could go either way - depending on time gaps.
OK, OK… those of us who have raced know what I’m talking about here. Climbing at “race pace” is all about pain management. It’s all about PAIN, PAIN, and MORE PAIN! Any chance, no matter how incredibly miniscule, to reduce the pace on a climb reduces the pain. But that’s the Catch-22, isn’t it? You see, there’s always some asshole who can handle the pain better than you, which by extension means they can climb better. You gotta hang on to them, no matter what. So you follow their wheel - refusing to give up.
That’s where it’s psychological.
I can’t say that Lance has given up any stages this year. As far as the first ITT goes only Lance and maybe his team manager know if he lifted off at the end. Don’t forget that the TV was broadcasting the time splits between the difference Zabriske, and the team car are equipped to receive TV signals (I saw a special on the Paris-Roubaix and there was a shot inside the Discovery team car. You could see the TV screen and hear Phil Ligget talking in the background) So did Lance lift? Only Lance and his team manager know for sure. I do not.
But when it comes to panache let’s look at a couple of earlier tours.
In 2003 Victor Hugo Pena would up in the Yellow Jersey for several days after the team time trial. The following day I recall seeing Lance going back to the team car and picking up water bottles for the team. When asked later, he said that he was supporting the yellow jersey. 
Now I am sure that he did it as kind of a lark, and I only recall seeing him do it once. But it still had to be a kick in the pants for VHP to have Lance pass him a water bottle.
I also recall one other mountain stage where Lance and one team mate reached the top with one other rider. I recall that Lance told his team mate to “ride it like you stole it” but the third rider took the stage, with Lance either 2 or 3rd. In other words Lance tried to give the stage to a team mate, but there just wasn’t enough left. My googlefu is weak tonight, and I could not determine which stage on which year it was, but I do recall it happening.
Furthermore compare the D boys and how they work together compared to say T-Mobile. The D boys always work together, with one goal in mind. T-Mobile on the other hand look like a herd of cats out on the road. You can’t seem to get more than 2 of them riding together at one time (with one exception, and Lance ripped them apart) Compared to the D boys, T-Mobile is the dysfunctional family circus. Hell they don’t even have all of their guys in the same color uniform. Yeah I know that Vinokourov is a national champion, but don’t forget his contract is up this year. I will bet a beer that he is not wearing a TMO uniform next year. Any takers?
On preview
This is what makes the tour so great. Watching these guys fight to overcome the pain and hang in there is awe inspiring. Speaking as a fat old man who struggles to go up some hills at maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of a race pace, I know the pain that I go through, I can only guess what amounts of pain they endure. I admire these guys every single one of them.
Also even on the hills at the pace they ride there is a little bit of wind resistance. If you can get somebody else to cut that wind, it makes for just a little less pain you have to endure.
T-Mobile under Walter Goodfriet certainly isn’t the premier organizational/motivational unit in the world, but that, “not even in the same color uniform” remark is frankly rather inane. There isn’t a cyclist or team in the world that wouldn’t want to take the chance to go ahead and wear any special jersey at any time, including the national championship jersey of Kazachstan. Frankly, T-Mobile has actually had much stronger team tactics overall this year compared to Discovery, perhaps even among the best in the race. On Saturday, T-Mobile was in a great position, they used Vino to isolate Lance on the first climb and then both Vino and Kloden to try to put him under pressure at the base of the first. Also, T-Mobile has consistently finished with more riders than Disco except that one stage right after last Saturday when Lance was isolated for the first time. T-Mobile, CSC, Phonak, and a number of teams lead Disco in the team ranking at this years Tour, and Lance hasn’t had a single stage win because he’s never had the climber train to bust everyone else’s balls before the finish like he did last year with Rubiera. Combine that with only managing to win the TTT through a crash.
Don’t get me wrong, Hincapie put in a great ride brought about by great preparation to get himself into the appropriate climbing shape, but Disco hasn’t been the show-stopping force they were in past years.
Eh, this is kind of shitty:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul19news3
Apparently Pereiro kept asking Hincapie to pull through as they reached the flatter, faster, and therefore more tactical 3K finishing stretch, Hincapie kept saying that he would, but obviously he never did until the final 300 meters. I wish that more people would finish races like Voigt vs. Vino in this year’s Liege-Bastiogne-Liege: a handshake, mutual respect, equal work, and going at it side by side for the last 3K instead of stupid cat and mouse shit or being a bitch. But hey, a win’s a win at Disco, apparently.
Okey-dokey, seems we are in for a very boring finish, Cadel Evans raced the race of his life so far, with serious motivation, and the bastiges kicked him to the curb. Is the last five days gonna be like Tiger winning the Open? ie., “Morpheus, what you smell is the smell of inevitabilty”… Or something like that!!!
Well, Savoldelli takes the win the day before yesterday for Disco and I think it was done in a way to satisfy one’s sense of honor. Today’s the last day anyone can put any kind of time on Lance, so I wonder if Ullrich is going to do something desperate.
Well it looks like Lance went out today to prove that he is worthy of the yellow jersey. Ahead of Ullrich by :23, and 1:54 on Baso.
What the hell happened to Rasmussen? Two crashes and four bike changes? I guess that some days it just doesn’t pay to get out of bed. :smack: At least he still has the king of the mountain.
Anyway here are the results after stage 20: Look at positions 5-8. Will any of these guys attack tomorrow to try and get enough seconds to move up?
1 001 ARMSTRONG Lance DSC USA
2 021 BASSO Ivan CSC ITA 04' 40"
3 011 ULLRICH Jan TMO GER 06' 21"
4 031 MANCEBO Francisco IBA ESP 09' 59"
5 164 LEIPHEIMER Levi GST USA 11' 25"
6 019 VINOKOUROV Alexandre TMO KAZ 11' 27"
7 057 RASMUSSEN Mickael RAB DEN 11' 33"
8 044 EVANS Cadel DVL AUS 11' 55"
9 066 LANDIS Floyd PHO USA 12' 44"
10 068 PEREIRO SIO Oscar PHO ESP 16' 04"
Poor, poor poor poor poor Rasmussen. I was disappointed that his day sucked badly and the top 3 in GC turned out to be exactly as one would have predicted.
Well, any guesses for next year?
Is there any way that would happen? First off, these guys have had their chances in previous days to jump and gain time, and they haven’t even tried. Why would they now?
More over, even if someone were only one minute off, would it be considered “decent” to attack and ruin the champagne parade, even if it is still part of the race, and he were so close?
Not gonna happen.