The ongoing problem with misogyny on the SDMB

[Babale]

@jackdavinci

The original post was about SMDB misogyny. One person decided to use that topic as a place to complain about a very specific topical derailment, which seems to me to be itself a derailment. The issue of that particular phenomenon is much more about the peculiarities of that particular thread and has little to do with misogyny as an overall issue. If that’s really the best example we can find I’m not sure why the OP brought up the issue. My point is, there seems to be a general disagreement with regards to the way the title, the OP, and the first mod post vagrantly contradict each other about the purpose of this thread.

…Because he brought up the most recent example of misogyny on the board. This thread isn’t about FGM, it’s about “the ongoing problem with misogyny on the SDMB”. The FGM thread is one place where this “ongoing problem” exists so that’s why Czarcasm brought it up. If another thread is derailed by misogyny, then that thread will be discussed here as well. This really isn’t complicated…

[SmartAleq]

You know what the world needs? More men deciding what is and isn’t misogyny. I mean, it’s not like we’ve EVER been allowed to define it ourselves–no, it’s not canon until Some Guy declares it is.

Babale has already banged it square on the bean because it is actually functionally impossible to have ANY discussion of ANY topic that focuses on how that topic affects women without the fucking Kool-Aid pitcher busting through the wall squealing, “BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ!!!1!ELEVENTY!!” And it’s not just here, it’s EVERYWHERE. They simply cannot help themselves. Online, IRL, doesn’t matter–men generally simply MUST have their say about absolutely every topic and must obligatorily shift focus to how it affects them. This is a function of privilege, which dictates that the group of perceived higher status must be taken into account at all times, their preferences catered to and their noxious opinions heard no matter how tangential or irrelevant they might be to the subject at hand.

Now let’s see how long it takes for some indignant man to declare “BUT NOT ALL MEN!!!” because that’s a part of it–women or other marginalized groups are not allowed to make any sort of blanket statement regarding the behavior of men in general without also petting down their hurt feewings by assuring them that OF COURSE you don’t mean THEM–just all the OTHER men who insist on being treated as special in every space.

flips double bird

[Czarcasm]

What they said.

[Babale]

It really, really isn’t that hard. SmartAleq is right, women are the ones affected by misogyny, so if a bunch of them are telling you that your board culture is misogynistic, you have 2 options… You can whine about how unfair it is, and lose the last few women who still post here; or you can listen to what they tell you is offensive, and stop being offensive.

It’s fine to be offensive once in a while. We all make mistakes, and the world around us is changing. We should always be learning and re-learning how to treat each other. But if someone tells you that you are being offensive, and you don’t stop, then you’re being a jerk, and that’s against the rules of this board.

[SmartAleq]

And not only do they not stop, they double and triple and quadruple down on their specious arguments about how behavior they’ve been explicitly told is offensive isn’t REALLY offensive because reasons (reasons always being “because I don’t like being told what to do and having my behavior scrutinized and criticized by Those Lesser People”) and they Never. Shut. Up. Ever. Which is why it would be nice to have people around who will shut them the fuck up once in a while.

[John_Mace]

There are worse forms of misogyny than hijacking a FGM thread to talk about MC, but I think the term is broad enough (no pun intended) that it can encompass the hijack without stretching the definition beyond what is reasonable.

[Ulfreida]

@John_Mace

There are worse forms of misogyny than hijacking a FGM thread to talk about MC, but I think the term is broad enough (no pun intended) that it can encompass the hijack without stretching the definition beyond what is reasonable.

What was all that about women deciding what is misogynistic thread hijacking again?

Or you aren’t on board with that?

[SmartAleq]

As I said, they simply cannot help themselves, it’s literally a kneejerk reaction.

[John_Mace]

@Ulfreida

What was all that about women deciding what is misogynistic thread hijacking again?

Or you aren’t on board with that?

I think men are capable of understanding the definition of words. I also don’t accept that only women can decide what is misogynistic, even if I think men often miss the mark and should take women seriously when they point it out. But I’m not going to agree to blind acceptance 100% of the time.

Are we to say that the male moderators here can’t moderate for misogyny (without first being prompted by a woman)?

[elbows]

Have you seen any moderators, male or not, mod for misogyny that WASN’T prompted by a woman?

If it wasn’t for the women on this board, pushing, HARD, every thread about anything female would STILL be being punctuated with, “How you doing!” or lame titty jokes!

[Babale]

@John_Mace

I think men are capable of understanding the definition of words. I also don’t accept that only women can decide what is misogynistic, even if I think men often miss the mark and should take women seriously when they point it out. But I’m not going to agree to blind acceptance 100% of the time.

Are we to say that the male moderators here can’t moderate for misogyny (without first being prompted by a woman)?

@elbows

Have you seen any moderators, male or not, mod for misogyny that WASN’T prompted by a woman?

If it wasn’t for the women on this board, pushing, HARD, every thread about anything female would STILL be being punctuated with, “How you doing!” or lame titty jokes!

I’m just gonna quote these together, because elbows’ response is pretty much perfect.

I haven’t posted in these Misogyny threads before, but at this point, I’m getting really tired of seeing every thread remotely related to women derailed by misogynists.

[Ambivalid]

@Babale

Here’s the thing. FGM and MC are two separate issues. One is experienced by men, one by women. They are different issues. Not just because the physical acts are different, but because of a lot of the context involved.

This is true of other issues faced by men and women as well. Sometimes even if the particular issue DOES apply to both men and women in similar ways – say, domestic abuse – there’s STILL the fact that context means that it’s a much bigger issue for women then for men.

So when someone creates a thread to discuss the issues faced by women, and certain posters find whatever they thing is an equivalent issue faced by men, despite the fact that the issue faced by men is much less serious, that’s a hijack of the thread, and it creates a culture of misogyny on the board.

Depending on the issue, the difference could be because the male issue is physically less harmful, or because in society the issue affects women way more often than it affects to men, or because the power dynamics in society mean that most men facing this issue can deal with it much more easily than most women can. The exact cause differs. But the point is, the issue is NOT equivalent for men and women, and when you hijack a thread about the women’s issue with your men’s issue, you’re saying “very serious women’s issues only matter as much as minor men’s issues” which is clearly a misogynistic thing to do.

So if the mods want to help get rid of the misogynistic environment on the board, as soon as a poster tries to redirect a women’s issue thread to men’s issues, they should be censured by mod note or, if it continues, with a warning.

This really isn’t a hard concept to grasp and it saddens me that it’s still being discussed instead of having been handled already.

QFT.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@elbows

Have you seen any moderators, male or not, mod for misogyny that WASN’T prompted by a woman?

If it wasn’t for the women on this board, pushing, HARD, every thread about anything female would STILL be being punctuated with, “How you doing!” or lame titty jokes!

While I agree that this issue has been primarily championed and argued by women, as one of people who gets to see reports, I promise you that men are reporting mysoginistic posts as well.

[Modesty_Blaise]

Babale and SmartAleq - standing ovation.

This shit is just so frustrating and exhausting.

[Modesty_Blaise]

Also, Czarcasm thank you for starting this thread

[Czarcasm]

@Modesty_Blaise

Also, Czarcasm thank you for starting this thread

How could I not?

[jackdavinci]

@SmartAleq

You know what the world needs? More men deciding what is and isn’t misogyny. I mean, it’s not like we’ve EVER been allowed to define it ourselves–no, it’s not canon until Some Guy declares it is

There seem to be two competing ideas about what misogyny is then, 1) anything a particular woman decides they find offensive and 2) ideas based in the premise that women are somehow inferior than men.You seem to be suggesting that anything in the first category is automatically in the second category.

It also seems strange to believe both that a whole gender is incompetent to discuss the meaning of a word, but at the same time a single person can speak for their entire gender. Those ideas aren’t really compatible.

I also find it kind of odd that we are in a thread about sexism, characterizing posters by assumptions about their gender based on their views, when most of us are just genderless voices in the wnd with silly user names. Is Czarcasm male or female? I have no idea and don’t think it matters.

I’ll reiterate, the problems with that particular thread have much more to do with how it was formed than about board misogyny or derailment in general and is a very poor example of either.And the place to complain about a perceived issue with MGM activists is not in a thread about misogyny. It is it’s own particular thing. Whether it is a derailment really depends on what the particular thread is about. If I had to make a general statement, I’d say it’s more relevant in threads about the US and less relevant in threads about other areas.

As to the whole premise that it’s purely an issue of evil men horning in on women’s issues, I invite anyone to suggest with a straight face the idea that we could have a MC thread without FGM being brought up.

There may be a board misogyny problem, but the whole GM controversy is the worst possible example we could use for exploring it.

[jackdavinci]

@Czarcasm

In my opinion, some of the posts in that thread seem to be trollish in their efforts to belittle a very real problem.

This is what I find the most bizarre about this situation.

Now i could understand if Czarcasm’s gripe was really about the annoyance of certain people constantly chiming in on a particular thread, if he really thought it was irrelevant, even though from my perspective this seems kind of like complaining about conservatives being attracted to topics about liberals, still, i could at least see where he was coming from.

But here is is claiming the real issue is that MGM posters are belittling the importance of FGM intentionally, when in fact from what i can see, most MGM posters are saying that all GM is important, and it is mostly CZAR is belittling people for their believing an issue is a very real problem.

You are mischaracterizing your ideological opponents not based on the merits of their ideas but by assigning to them behavior that is more correctly ascribed to yourself. Thats not fair play.

[Czarcasm]

This isn’t a game that you can doubletalk your way into “winning”. If you are having that much trouble understanding what the problem is, might I suggest listening to what the females are saying in this thread(and far too many others) instead of trying to render such conversations meaningless?

[John_Mace]

@elbows

Have you seen any moderators, male or not, mod for misogyny that WASN’T prompted by a woman?

How would I know* what prompts a given moderator to moderate a post? And what does that even have to do with what I posted? If you disagree with anything I wrote, how about pointing out what that is and why you disagree. I’ll be happy to accept a correction if I was wrong.

If it wasn’t for the women on this board, pushing, HARD, every thread about anything female would STILL be being punctuated with, “How you doing!” or lame titty jokes!

Again, what does that have to do with what I posted? You seem to be arguing against a position I have not taken. Yes, women led the charge against misogyny on this MB. Where did I say they didn’t?
*Except for the fact that IvoryTowerDenison has already pointed out that you’re wrong.