The ONLY way to heaven...

Great Debates
41

Well, there are two ways to heaven actually, and to do an exegesus of the scriptures does confirm this. The soul that sins dies. If you don’t sin, you don’t die, and will end up in heaven. This is from Moses, a prophet of old. Moses laid two choices, and there were only two. And, as they were laws, they are applicable to everyone. The law of blessings, and the law of curses. Sin, or transgress the law of God or the ten commandments, and you get the curses. Don’t sin, and you get the blessings. The only other way is if someone takes the place of your punishment, and you get the blessings while they get the curses. To say that there are many ways to God, and that Jesus’ death was only applicable to those who need to believe it, doesn’t really make sense with either the old testament, nor the new testament. So yes, Jesus is the only way to heaven, since all have sinned.

What about those who’ve never heard about Jesus is a common question then, and the Bible is clear that those who’ve never heard the law, are judged as not having the law, although their conscience will bear witness that they’ve broken it. But in this case, I’ll just believe that God is just, and will do better than I can.

42

Svt4Him, as someone who knows 2 genuinely Good people who have gone from Fundamentalist Christianity to Atheism to Wiccan, I must disagree. It’s a long running debate among Christians, but as a Christian myself, I firmly believe Christ died for the sins of all people, regardless of religion. Like you, I believe God is just, therefore I cannot accept that he will deny heaven to someone who was driven away from Christianity while admitting the people who drove him away.

Since these two good friends live up in Maine, I’ve got to admit, as far as I’m concerned I-95 does lead to heaven, and what’s more, it’s got a hot tub! :smiley: Polycarp, you and I’ve got to go there some day.

CJ

43

Svt4Him

Unless you are convinced that God will seek out your advice and counsel when He makes His judgments, perhaps it is a good idea to believe so, not just in this case, but in every case.

44

I do believe God will not seek out my advice, but the debate was not regarding my advice, whether it’s merited or not. When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me” He didn’t say some men will come through Him, nor did He say all will get to the Father, just some need to go through Him. So either it’s true or it isn’t. But the verse, if true, is very exclusive. No one is no one, no matter how you cut it.

That said, I’m curious as to the definition of a good person Siege. These good people, have they ever lied? If so, then they are what? Have they ever taken anything that doesn’t belong to them, no matter how small or when? Then they are what? And if they have lied or stolen anything, no amount of good will erase that fact.

45

Have you ever lied or stolen, Svt4Him? As far as I know, while they may have lied to themselves, they have not lied to others, and they are, as am I, “honest to the point of stupidity.” These people have saved my life and my soul, quite literally. When I lost my job, they took me into their home for the weekend, and stood by me while I put my life back together. When I was depressed to the point where I was likely to commit suicide, one of them held me in his arms and quoted the words of Christ to me. I am one of many people they have helped. These people have shown me the love of Christ in a fashion many Christians have not.

Who are you to judge them? Especially, who are you to judge them as being worse than Christians? This very week, we have had a so-called Christian with a very similar name to yours tell lies about other Christians in the BBQ Pit. While I’ve been trying to reconcile with this lady during this week, there is no question of whose company I prefer. There is no good in you, either, according to stricter forms of Christianity. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

I’ve never tried to set my definition of a good person into words, but here’s a start at it. A good person is one who has honor, love, respect, kindness, and courage and shows forth those qualities in the world. Honor means that person will not knowingly lie, cheat, or steal, among other things. It speaks of a core of integrity which goes far beyond nit-picky details. A truly good person, too, is one who’s actions go beyond mere self-interest and who will work to aid and defend others. Tell me, have you ever helped someone in need or come to the defense of someone who was being attacked?

Technically speaking, none of us are worthy of heaven, be they an preacher in a Fundamenalist church, a Wiccan priest, or the Archboshop of Canterbury. I cannot worship a God who would reject a person based on the words that are on their lips rather than what is in their hearts and in their souls. I also have a lousy track record of abandoning my friends. Please do not even think of suggesting I do so.

CJ

46

Yes, indeed, no one is no one.

But way is not way. Merriam Webster gives a whole slew of definitions for “way”, and of course, the Greek word — [symbol]odos[/symbol], from the original scripture — can mean several things. In this case, it means “journey”: I am the journey. And watch out for those prepositions (e.g., “through”, “by”, etc.)! They’re grammatical tigers. Finally, be certain that you know what He meant by “Me”. If you believe that He was the box that contained Him, then you are mistaken.

Creating exclusions is extremely dangerous. You are painting with very thick, slow-drying paint and behind you is a corner. It is best to let God do His own painting.

47

Think carefully about what Lib. just said. The Greek preposition of which “Me” is the object, translated as “through” or “by” in most English renderintgs, is kata, and I don’t hav the scholarship in Ancient, Koiné or modern Greek to discuss what meanings it might have had. But contemplate the following sentences:
“He washed the dishes with Joy” (and afterwards kissed her)
“He washed the dishes with joy” (because he was in an ebullient mood)
“He washed the dishes with Joy™” (because it was the only dishwashing detergent available).
The meaning of “with” shifts a bit, doesn’t it?

The first point I want to make is that Jesus is not defining an exclusive methodology of salvation in John 14:6, but rather contrasting His own teachings with other supposed techniques. “Look, Philip, you don’t get to Heaven by following the Law precisely or by rote, you don’t get there by achieving nirvana or satori, you don’t get there by mystic contemplation of the shekinah or by observing the numerological significance of the ten sephiroth – you get there by putting your trust in God and following Him – and I am the One He sent to show you that.”

I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Way – but remember that that is in the context that He is the active force in the Godhead, which was perceived by Mohammed as Allah the Merciful, by Baha’ullah as that which seeks to draw together and upward to Itself. When Gautama Buddha taught that enlightenment lies in indifference to the changeable things of this world, he was seeng the same point as the author of Hebrews in saying that we are pilgrims in this world and our home is not here. Good Buddhist doctrine is in the Sermon on the Mount: “Take no thought, therefore, what you will eat, or what you will drink, or what you will wear. For your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things. But seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness. And all these things will be added unto you.”

The last thing that He would have meant is that you must be properly baptized by a priest in the Apostolic Succession, or recite meaningfully the Sinner’s Prayer, or do some kind of mystical acceptance of Jesus’ Atonement – He meant that you need to put your trust in God and live out the mode of life He calls you to, relying on Him for strength to do it – and we’ve dealt a million times with just what that mode of life consists in. “The first and greatest commandment is, ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God wit all thy heart, and all thy mind, and all thy soul, and all thy strength.’ And the second is like unto it, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’” That means faith, in the meaning of trust, it means humility, becuse He’s God and you’re not, it means respect for others, because they are as important to Him as you, and it means mercy and compassion. And undoubtedly a lot more – but in that you have the core of what He taught.

48

The Op may have a point.

If you keep going I95 S. past Richmond, you’ll come to Paramount’s King’s Dominion amusement park.

If you’ve ever eaten in the Bubba Gump Shrimp Co. Restaurant, while Forrest Gump plays endlessly on the wall TV’s, well…

That’s about as good a definition of Hell as you’re likely to find.

49

Naah, Scylla, Hell is by definition an ultimate. And if you keep going on I-95, in Homestead FL it empties onto US-1. And that ends in Key West – which is therefore Hell.

Just ask Pat Robertson.

50

This could be one of the most enlightening things I have read in quite a while.

wow…

I just have to sit back and take time to reread it…

You put my sentiments in so much better context and so much more eloquently than I could.

Cool.

:wink:

51

I agree. I often find that to be true when I read Lib’s, Poly’s and Tris’ posts. A belated welcome to the boards, newcrasher.

52

Yeah, Polycarp’s pretty good.

On the other hand he thinks Key West is hell, which I guess makes Paramount King’s Dominion purgatory.

This is clear balderdash, as everybody knows the Number of the Beast is Six Flags.

53

Interesting…

Almost like the 6 blind men and the Elephant.

Just in case you don’t know…6 blind men wanted to know what an elephant was like. One man grabs the elephants ear and proclaim to himself that this is an elephant…another blind man grabs the elephants tusk and proclaims to himself that this is an elephant, so does the one who grabs its trunk, the one who grabs its tail, the one who grabs its tongue. They each just grab one part of the elephant while not touching the whole elephant thus proclaiming by what they touched as what they preceive the elephant must look like.

So it is like with GOD and religion man see’s only one part of GOD and proclaims it to be GOD, but not actually seeing all that is GOD. So if someone in Israel see’s God he proclaims him Yaweh, if someone in Asia see’s God, he proclaims him to be Buddah. If someone in Morrocco see’s God he proclaims him to be Allah, and if someone in the America see’s God he proclaims him to be Joseph Smith…its all actually just one GOD, but people just see one part of him. Just like the blind men.

Damn, i don’t think I made any sense…

54

Poly, and Libertarian are true defenders of the Faith, and such erudite and subtle minds that I stand in continuing awe. Thank you very much.

Theology can be perilous thing, and if you find in your theology, a thing which does not ring with love, and sing of the joy of being loved, then I beg you, be very careful. You might be lost in a sea of words. Seek out the kind and courageous hearts that can help you understand that the truth must be both spoken, and heard. Listen with your heart, not just your ears.

But, I give you this to consider, as well. Jesus, Christ, the Redeemer, and Savior of us all is not going to let someone perish just because they don’t understand theology, or they understand it incorrectly. He is not standing at the gate guarding the key. He is along every road, and in the darkest prison, and in the farthest corner of the greatest trackless waste. And He is waiting there for you. You are the reason He came here. It’s a miracle. (That is not a generic you, by the way.)

I know people who cannot understand the words “Jesus is Lord.” They cannot understand the word love. They know love. They know joy, and sorrow. But they do not know the word God. They are kind, and cruel, at times, and giving, and greedy at others. They are souls, beloved of their Father in Heaven. Do you think Jesus is going to abandon them to destruction because they don’t understand philosophy? What sort of heartless beast do you think the Son of God is?

The Bible is a story about some people who came to know God. You should read it, if you can read. But read it with you heart open to the love of God for Man. Don’t look for mathematics lessons, or political instructions. Look for your soul. And make your heart a place where the Son of God might wish to enter.

If you find you are learning about what is going to happen to a bunch of other people, I think you need to stop reading, and start working on the love part. If you can’t love God, then go out and love his children. There are plenty of them that need it. That would even be a good idea if there was not God.

But there is.

Tris

55

So Spider Robinson is really an agent of the Adversary? :eek:

56

Have I lied? Yes. So as a liar, am I a good person? Have I stolen? Yes, so now I’m a lying thief, am I still a good person? You don’t judge me by calling me a liar, if I’ve lied, I’m a liar, by my own admission.

You are correct, none of us are worthy, and none of us could go to heaven if it’s based on our goodness. That was my point, people do believe they are good enough, but that’s by an internal standard of goodness, or a relative standard, not God’s standard. As for what a person is judged on, you again are correct, it’s not the words said, it’s what’s in the heart. Granted what’s in the heart comes out of the mouth, but God looks at our hearts. Jesus said if you lust after a woman, you’ve committed adultery with her in your heart. What you do after that is based on what happens in your heart.

57

I used to think the same way as you do, Polycarp, but I think now that this view is too simplistic. Good Buddhist doctrine is definitely NOT placing your faith in any deity for your salvation but acceptance of the Four Noble Truths and following the Eightfold Path. Whether you attain the state of Nirvana (or Nibbana) does not depend on your acceptance of any monotheistic being but how well you stick to the Path.

True enough, things are dynamic all the time and we would all be a lot better emotionally if we “Take no thought, therefore, what you will eat, or what you will drink, or what you will wear”. However these are the means, and it just happens that the means in Buddhism and Christianity happily coincide in this instance. But the ends are different, and I think you’ve neglected that.