What of all the good people in this world who do not follow the teachings of Jesus?
If they live a good life, and follow God’s commandments in their own way, won’t they be forgiven by Jesus and be saved?
Damned if I know. I have enough trouble figuring out the motives of humans.
I have a few thoughts on this subject:
[DISCLAIMER! The opinions which follow are not those of a graduate of any recognized school of divinity, nor are they the opinions of someone who claims that God speaks to him on a regular basis. Inexpert opinion follows:]
While the New Testament declares no-one shall enter heaven except by Jesus, it does not state that everyone who gets in will know this until they get there. Otherwise, everyone who isn’t a Christian or a pre-Jesus Jew is going straight to hell (at least according to some folks – not me).
Has God provided salvation for the uninformed or unbelieving? I think so. The way I understand things is that while you can’t get into heaven by your own efforts, an honest desire to seek wisdom and the truth will be rewarded with success. This does not imply that you will necessarily want to join the “Church of Jesus Christ, Messiah, with Signs and Fires Following” immediately thereafter.
I myself refuse to join a particular church because according to the Bible, I already am part of the Church (meaning the body of believers). According to how I understand things, I can imagine there will even be some very surprised athiests who make it in despite themselves.
–Baloo
PS: If you disagree with any part of the declaration above, don’t bug me about it. I don’t care if you agree with me so long as you understand what I meant. If you disagree, then tell me what you think, rather than trying to tell me I ought to believe otherwise – your odds of convincing me are better that way. If you don’t understand what I meant, bug me about it, but be polite, please?
DEBAUCHEE, n. One who has so earnestly pursued pleasure that he has had the misfortune to overtake it.
–Ambrose Bierce
[B"]Come Hither and Yawn…**
Would you send your “children” to hell?
For by grace are you saved…
If you can’t convince them, confuse them.
Harry S. Truman
I’m going with the C.S. Lewis philosophy on this one. At the end of the Narnia Chronicles there comes a judgment day. It turns out that Aslan was the one, true deity after all. One dude, who had worshipped a “false” deity came forward, weeping because he had not honored the “true” God. Aslan says to him something to the effect that, “It’s not what you call me that’s important. It’s your actions. If you have treated others kindly, you have done so in my name, even if you called me by some other name.” This man was welcomed into “heaven” for his deeds, not his bible.
I’m a catholic, but I don’t espouse the “one true church” philosophy. In fact, in the apostolic creed, I skip the part that says, “I believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church.” Sorry. I don’t buy it. I just don’t believe that God is going to condemn good people simply because they didn’t buy the “correct” bible.
So, will Jesus forgive everyone? I think the prerequisite is that they’re truly sorry.
Just my 2 cents…
One one hand not one of us can ever get to heaven by our deeds, only by God’s grace.
How He chooses to dole out grace on judgement day is His call. If He wants to forgive those that have truly desired and sought after the truth, cool. If not, He’s still God so that’s the way it is. Personally, I don’t want to bank on gettin in on my deeds, I’d much rather go with Jesus.
To reiterate- I don’t know who will and won’t go to heaven. But until that day I will continue to show people what I believe to be the Way… what they do with what I say is between them and God. I won’t ever help someone accept Christianity by dangling them over hell.
Jesus said, “If you love me, you will do what I command.” Not “If you don’t want to go to hell, you will do what I command.”
I believe that my acceptance of Jesus and any good works I do should be based on my love for Jesus, not me trying to win salvation or keep out of hell.
Just my thoughts.
“7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt.”
Phil. 3:6-8
Will it make a difference if Jesus forgives everyone?
No.
Jesus was not Messiah, and has no power to forgive sin.
Is there, in fact, a Hell?
No.
Not as the term is usually used, anyway. The purpose of Gehinnom is purgatorial. The soul (actually, one of the souls) does not remain in it forever, but only for a maximum of 12 months (in fact the Kaddish, the prayer for the dead, is traditionally only recited for eleven months, since it would be insulting to the memory of the deceased to imply that his sins were so great that his soul is required to reside in Gehinnom for the full twelve months).
“Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.”
[sermon] My personal opinion: the “one-true-way” concept has been responsible for more bloodshed and misery than any other notion. The Catholics kill the Protestants and the Protestants kill the Catholics, and the Moslems kill the Jews and… Not even to mention how the Lutherans hate the other Lutheran synods.
And the notion that there is Only One Way seems to me to be restrictive, limiting God’s power and love. Surely God is far more complex than the simplistic notions people had 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago. As our understanding of the complexity of the universe expands, surely so must our understanding of God.
Let’s not forget that the original Israelite notion was that God was local, concentrated His presence on top of a mountain. It was only the Babylonian Exile that lead to the understanding that God is universal.
I find C.S. Lewis generally repugnant, but I like the example cited. Surely God cares more about how we treat each other than he does about the image that we have of Him or the name by which we call Him. [/sermon]
As long as you have a conscience that leads to repentance when you have done a wrongful act, than you should not be condemned to a spiritual death. The kingdom of G-d is within you and you must also be able to forgive others. I feel that none of those who take refuge in Him or calls out to G-d will be condemned.
“Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” Psalm 119:105
CKDextHavn -
In what way is this true? Certainly it says in the Torah (which I think everyone agrees predates the Babylonian exile…even the ‘scholarly’ camp usually dates its authorship to some time during the kingdom of Judea) that G-d is the ruler of and creator of the entire world.
Yes, the Israelites b elieved that he chose a specific mountain upon which he wished people to sacrifice to him; that didn’t change following the Babylonian exile; the Jews never sacrificed anywhere else.
So I’m a bit confused by your statement.
Chaim Mattis Keller
cmkeller@compuserve.com
“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
Sorry, guys, but when you die, you’re dead.
Anything else is a pipe dream.
CKDextHaven: You may like the idea behind the C. S. Lewis example, but the example isn’t exactly accurate. Aslan didn’t recognize Emeth as a follower only because he was “kind” to others, but because he did right (as much as anybody can), and Aslan counted his right actions as service to himself. There was also the fact that as soon as Emeth saw the lion (Aslan) he worshiped him, recognizing that he had been following the wrong god all his life.
So it wasn’t just general kindness, it was righteous behavior, and a knowledge (soon or late) of the true god.
I like this example myself, but it includes a lot more than just being nice.
OK…I read some, but not all, of Narnia…Aslan was the lion, right? The one who was tortured and killed in TLTWATW?
-David
There are many, many religions and splinters of religions that all claim to be the ‘one way’, along with the beliefs of agnostics and atheists.
sigh What if ALL of them are right?
What if whatever happens (or you perceive to happen) at death is whatever you BELIEVE will happen?
What if Christians who believe they are going to heaven go to heaven when they die? And people who believe they are going to hell go to hell when they die? What if those who believe they will be reincarnated are reincarnated when they die? What if those who believe death is nothingness become nothing when they die? What if those who believe they are going to the planet Theta when they die go to the planet Theta?
What if my concept of heaven is different from yours - maybe I go to my heaven, and you go to yours?
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Yes, SoulFrost, he was killed to save Edmund’s life. He gave His life so Edmund, a traitor, could live.
Phaedrus, former member of the C.S. Lewis Society of Cleveland, Ohio
coosa, you would enjoy James Branch Cabell, especially Jurgen, and The Silver Stallion.
Tom~
Only the one True G-d forgives sin from a repenting heart.
“Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” Psalm 119:105
Traditional Christian doctrine has always been that God saves anyone who turns to him. LDMB people who stayed behind are welcome to run off quotes on this. Jesus exhibited himself as “the Way” to provide that access and bring people to God. As for those who, for whatever reason, did not get the idea of God’s love, that is left a mystery. A just God is not going to condemn someone for having lived in Manchuria in the 2nd Century BC and never having heard of him.
Baloo has most of the idea in good order. BTW, Baloo and Lisa, the whole idea behind the church is to provide humans, who are social animals, with support in keeping up their relationship with God. Lots of other purposes, but that is the key one. Granted that half the churches in America don’t do that job, or do it so poorly as to make it useless, that’s what it’s supposed to do. As for “the one holy catholic (and apostolic) church” (creeds, the insert being from the Nicene) — best definition is one I learned from a Methodist Sunday School teacher 40 years ago — God created one church, composed of all believers. Human fault has split it into pieces, but God’s willing to overlook those differences and see the underlying unity of all who believe.
Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, no ne can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” When you are born again, you have asked for forgiveness of your sins. (read the entire book of Romans!) Many people believe, myself included, that since children don’t really know about God and can’t make a decision for themselves (up to a certain age) God will allow them into heaven anyway. The same goes for mentally ill people who have no way of comprehending who God is or what He does.
God bless.
Victoria Rose
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.