The most historically verifiable origin for 86’d comes from Delmonico’s, the first restaurant in New York City, in the 1830’s. (The restaurant opened in 1834) There were over 300 entrees on the menu and the 86th item was the Delmonico Steak (a ribeye steak). It was so popular that it was almost always sold out and over time 86 came to mean that something was sold out. Any chef worth their toque will tell you the same thing.
Cite?
Welcome to the SDMB, DDuffy.
A link to the column is appreciated. The simplest way to provide one is to paste the URL into your post, making sure to leave a blank space on either side of it. Like so: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_291b.html
I would think that any chef worth his toque would have the sense to order extra ribeye steaks so they wouldn’t be almost always sold out of them. A chef worth his toke, on the other hand …
First use of the expression that something is “86’d”, since the Delmonico Steak was item 86 on the menu and, when sold out, it was “86’d” (according to the Restaurant Report, Foodudes and Ask Dave))
Conclusion
this is from http://www.cbbqa.com/delmonico/Firsts.html
Restaurant report: http://www.restaurantreport.com/qa/86d.html
Foodudes was a dead link
Ask Dave:http://www.dinersoft.com/askdave/davenov00.htm
none of these say that it came from Delmonico’s without a doubt but all of them say it is the one that makes the most sense and dosent rely on “maybes” and urban legends to give the explanation. I am currently a student at Pennsylvania Culinary Institute in Pittsburgh and this may not mean much but every instructor and chef here will tell you that it came from Delmonico’s without a doubt.
btw any moderator worth his title would know that in 1830, one couldnt call Sysco and order a few hundred more steaks for 8 am delivery…especially in NYC and considering on can only get about 24 8 oz ribeyes from a cow (generally speaking)
My understanding is that “86’d” is derived from frontier bartenders serving “ladies whisky”–86 proof instead of the usual, stronger rotgut-- to drunken cowboys, thus shaming them into departing.
All of your sources, Duffy, indicate multiple possibilities.
It’s not surprising that all of the instructors and chefs at your school prefer the one that refers to a nice restaurant selling steaks.
Well actually both sources admit that the Delmonico’s explanation is the most plausible of the theories. Why shouldnt the chefs think it came from Delmonico’s?..It makes the most sense and has the most evidence to support it. Most of these theories are either way out there or have been proposed by “my great uncles girlfriends fortune teller who is an amateur historian on the side.” Its a fact that there was a Delmonicos restaurant, a fact there were more than 300 entrees, a fact that number 86 was the Delmonico steak, a fact that it was almost always sold out…the path from there to 86’d is a short one.
Lets look at it another way…of all the people in any industry, who needs to be in a hurry?..Chefs and servers have to be in the top 5. If anyone needs a way to talk less and cook more its them so 86 sounds like something that would be invented in a restaurant…I mean come on 8x6 holes in the ground meaning we are out of something…if any profession is NOT in a hurry its the undertakers. If you are already toasted and you are only stepping down to 86 proof then you wont live through the night. Soda Jerks probably did use it but I think Delmonicos predates soda stands.
Hey, DDuffy. That’s truly a great list of facts. I want to go view that menu from Delmonico’s that has 300 entrees, with number 86 being a Delmonico steak.
Where can I go to see it?
OH, yeah! WHERE can I view the fact that the Delmonico steak was almost always sold out? I missed the footnote. :rolleyes:
Curious, also, is that, even though the famous #86 Delmonico Steak was always sold out, it took until 1936 or so for the term to make it into the English language.
man i have to do all the work around here …http://www.delmonicosny.com/delmonicosny/
that will tell you that there were 370 dishes on the menu if you go to the history section and scroll through the facts.
And if you would have read through the first post you would have stumbled onto this site which says the steak was #86 and it was frequently sold out (try to stay with the rest of the group sammy) http://www.cbbqa.com/delmonico/Firsts.html
Oh yea btw, since everyone has a phobia about saying anything without a source, I would like to know where you fould that it didnt enter into the English language until 1936…and even if that is true, It was probably only then recognized as a phrase…have you seen “4 top” (a table with 4 seats) or “give it a little radar love” (put it in the microwave) in the Oxford English dictionary lately?..not there i would imagine…slang is rarely if ever recognized by a reputable source until many years later…far out huh?
goto the other 86 thread ?
Yep. Did that. Found no facts. Only second and third hand opinion.
Yep. Did that. Found opinion. No facts.
Sure. It’s found first in that reviled tome, the OED. from 1936. If you have an earlier find, please share it.
It was only recognized as a phrase? Yep. As for “four-top.” You’re correct. The OED doesn’t currently have it. But I would suggest that it didn’t exist before the 1970’s. Maybe the 1960’s. I’ll try to check if a slang dictionary has it.
“Give it a little radar love.” That phrase might make it into the dic in the next 20 years. We’re working night and day to include current stuff.
Slang is recognized by a reputable site/cite a bit quicker these days than you might imagine or know.
Not so far out.
ok buddy, if you cant find facts about Delmonico’s at Delmonico’s.com then theres not much I can do for you. Also I dont see whats wrong with the California Barbecue Association for facts about the subject…I realize that this dosent exactly sound like the horses mouth but regardless…a non-profit organization isnt gonna print something thats not true…he didnt make it up for goodness sake.
As for the OED, you havent said anything about the fact that it isnt exactly cutting edge. The phrase could have easily floated around in the bowels of restaurant prep and line-cookery and not have migrated to the mountains of England for a few decades(where the Oxford people no doubt keep their noses)
You seem to have a problem with keeping things in perspective here. We are talking about the 1830s here…even if slang can go from being new to being in the OED in a matter of years today with the internet and that whole easy international communication and travel thing…it certainly couldnt have back when those bolts of lightning, BOATS, were speeding back and forth from England to the US, not to even mention still that England wasnt too happy with us after we whipped them in a few wars. The last thing they cared about is 86’d
*Originally posted by DDuffy *
How are those facts? You confuse something posted on a website, without ANY cite or attribution, as a fact. That’s rather dangerous, but rather common.
Non-profit organizations are as reliable as your Aunt Tilly. They suck big time. The California Barbecue Association may be a nice site, but they offer nothing in the way of scholarly research. If you know otherwise, show it.
Actually, the Oxford people have come down out of the clouds and allowed us ‘merkins’ to contribute. Not that there weren’t American books on slang in the 1800’s. There were.
I’m not talking about the OED of the 1800’s. I’m talking about the world of finding word origins of 2003. And there ain’t any earlier cite yet. And the tools available today are mind boggling. Digital searcheable databases. You have no idea. But the phrase isn’t there.
I think Delmonico’s has a pretty good idea what was happening at Delmonico’s at any time. I dont know what kind of citing you are looking for…its obvious that there are no central, major, mainstream sources or the question wouldnt have ever been asked so we are forced to rely on the actual source for the information.
Ill give you the non profit thing…you are probably right…give me time and I will find another source for you to discredit.
I realize that the tools today are very powerful and one could find just about anything about anything nowadays. Regardless of that, in the 1830’s most of New York City was still farmland. The news sources of the day were unreliable at best and most people were more worried about where the next meal was going to come from, or being attacked by a wandering wolf… If the Delmonicos theory is correct, the cooks and servers were some of the same people getting paid crap and worried about surviving…these people didnt have time to write books and even if some wandering writer were to hear about the phrase, what are the chances it would get printed?.. A phrase that starts with a handful of people in one restaurant would be heard by the public little to none unless one of the cooks went somewhere else and began saying it…it may not even become mainstream enough to be recognized by a majority of the public until say…1936
The reality is that Mel Domico had two restaurants, one of them was at 68 Fifth Avenue, the other was on Broadway. When they needed more steak at the Fifth Avenue locale, they would send it from the Broadway site, and they called that 68ing the steak.
But Mel Domico was dyslexic, see, so both the name of the restaurant and the numbers were reversed and …
I need another scotch.
hmmm ive been taking shots of rum with my good friend Captain Morgan from Pelican Bay all night and I think you may have something there…but im gonna need some citing of your sources
Hey! I’m sure you’re a fine chef. I’m a pretty good cook, but you’re no doubt better.
I don’t do words for a living, but pretty close. It’s a passion. And I’m resonably good at it. I’ve paid my dues.
Delmonico’s, the Delmonico’s who wrote their current website, probably has NO clue as to their real history. I don’t mean that they deliberately misrepresent their history. Most of what they posted is probably correct. But when it comes to word origins and sometimes actual food items, they get carried away. They post what they believe to be true, only it isn’t. At least not proveable.
This is a pretty common disease. The New York Times, in the 20th Century, has written many food articles wherein they cite the source of a term, and they have been incorrect on multiple occasions. Many more than two. More than they care to retract. Again, this is a common problem.
OK, OK, here it is, unveiled for all: the REAL origin.
See, the clue is that 86 = 69 + 17, so if you perform 69 seventeen times, then…
No, no, I lie. The real story is that a survey by the British Ministry of War, conducted in 1864, determined that 14% of all sailors drowned when their ships sank, leaving 86% who abandoned ship, and thus…
… or was it the other way around?
OK, OK, so the real story is that there was this opera singer, performing in one of the Wagnerian Ring operas, and her bust measured exactly 86 cms, and everyone knew that it wasn’t over until the fat lady sang, hence “86 is coming up” was a slang term to mean the fat lady was about to sing, and things were winding down.