The penalty for making a false allegation of rape? £200

[Folacin]

@DCnDC

Well, he has a good case to build a civil suit on. That will surely cost her more than £200.

The article says “ordered to pay £200 in compensation” - does that go to the former boy friend or to the state coffers?

If to him, it seems on the low end of reasonable for the damage to him. The story is out, so I don’t think his reputation is taking a serious hit. He wasn’t taken to trial or convicted, so not a lot of damage there.

[AK84]

@Chronos

That said, if the justice system works properly, then convictions for false accusation would be fairly rare, because it’s a very difficult crime to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s not enough to just find the originally-accused party not guilty, because the burden of proof is different. And even if you can show beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused did not commit the original crime, the accuser could still argue that they reasonably believed the accusation to be truthful, which would also be a difficult defense to overcome.

That is inaccurate and irrelevant. A false accusation does not result from an acquittal. A false accusation is when it is made knowing that it is false.
Its not particularly difficult to prove, anymore than perjury is.

[John_Mace]

@ravenman

i’m starting to think quartz has only three topics in him:

1. Trump is being treated unfairly
2. Why are american standards of service so poor
3. Why men should be suspicious of women

I am not interested in talking about trump in this thread!!

[Ravenman]

@John_Mace

I am not interested in talking about trump in this thread!!

No, more like he isn’t interesting in talking about false accusations of rape in this thread.

[Eonwe]

@Chronos

As a matter of principle, should a false accusation of a crime carry similar consequences to the crime itself? I’d argue that it should. If someone is convicted of a crime, then they will have to pay some consequence that we as a society have chosen. If we’ve done that part right, then the consequence paid should be of a comparable severity to the crime itself. And if a person falsely accuses another of a crime, then they’re trying to cause someone else to suffer something unjustly. And so the punishment for that should be comparable to the suffering they were trying to inflict.

Isn’t that just “eye for an eye” justice? If I accuse you of murder and lie, then I should be given the same punishment that you would have gotten? Doesn’t it imply that lying about murder is equally as bad a crime as committing murder?

Consequences are not in any designed to have “comparable severity” to the crime committed, so this idea is flawed from the get go. Punishment for murder is not comparable to murder. Punishment for rape is not comparable to rape. Punishment for theft is not comparable to theft.

[RitterSport]

@Chronos

As a matter of principle, should a false accusation of a crime carry similar consequences to the crime itself? I’d argue that it should. If someone is convicted of a crime, then they will have to pay some consequence that we as a society have chosen. If we’ve done that part right, then the consequence paid should be of a comparable severity to the crime itself. And if a person falsely accuses another of a crime, then they’re trying to cause someone else to suffer something unjustly. And so the punishment for that should be comparable to the suffering they were trying to inflict.

That said, if the justice system works properly, then convictions for false accusation would be fairly rare, because it’s a very difficult crime to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s not enough to just find the originally-accused party not guilty, because the burden of proof is different. And even if you can show beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused did not commit the original crime, the accuser could still argue that they reasonably believed the accusation to be truthful, which would also be a difficult defense to overcome.

This is a terrible idea. Someone who (horribly) made a false accusation would never be willing to recant that accusation. If she/he recants, she/he is guaranteed to get a rape-equivalent conviction, but if she/he doesn’t, she/he could at least roll the dice with the jury. Meanwhile, the accused has to continue moving through the justice system on a false accusation.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Eonwe

Consequences are not in any designed to have “comparable severity” to the crime committed, so this idea is flawed from the get go. Punishment for murder is not comparable to murder. Punishment for rape is not comparable to rape. Punishment for theft is not comparable to theft.

You keep saying things good :). I asked Quartz if he believed accusations of rape deserved the same punishment as rape not because I thought anyone seriously believed that, but because I thought maybe he hadn’t thought about it directly and would realize how bizarre that was if he did think directly about it.

I strongly disagree with Chronos’s proposal.

[Aspidistra]

As a matter of policy, it’s a great idea to have a massively disparate punishment between ‘lie to the police and recant your lie quickly’ and ‘lie to the police and cause massive amounts of anguish, lost time and the potential for injustice, while your lies wind their way through the courts.’

Because many people, particularly people who interact with the police a lot, are dumb fucks with no capacity for imagining how it will be if they do xyz until after they’ve already done xyz and experienced what happens.

It seems wise to let them correct their mistake with only moderate penalty, if we want others to also correct lies at an early stage

[Quartz]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Remember, this is one that involved a teenager with no previous record and that was recanted quickly–it looks to me like it was recanted within 24 hours.

Not true, she had multiple opportunities to recant before she actually did. And only after the guy had been arrested and subjected to what the article calls ‘an intimate search’.

Absolutely such accusations should incur penalties. I’m not sure what size penalty is appropriate.

Neither am I but the punishment she was given is way too small.

[Thudlow_Boink]

Excellent point, Aspidistra.

[Quartz]

@Ravenman

I’m starting to think Quartz has only three topics in him:

1. Trump is being treated unfairly

Perhaps you should try taking me off Ignore and looking at my other threads.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Quartz

Not true, she had multiple opportunities to recant before she actually did. And only after the guy had been arrested and subjected to what the article calls ‘an intimate search’.

What are you saying is not true–that she recanted quickly, or that she recanted within 24 hours?

If it’s the latter, I can’t find the timeline, but it sure sounds to me from that article that she recanted within 24 hours of being contacted by the police.

If it’s the latter, you got a crazy definition of what “quickly” means in application to “recanted a confession”.

[Whack-a-Mole]

While I certainly think a false rape accusation is deserving of at least the same punishment as rape itself the problem is no woman would ever admit to a false accusation if that were the case.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Whack-a-Mole

While I certainly think a false rape accusation is deserving of at least the same punishment as rape itself

“at least”? :dubious:

[Quartz]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

What are you saying is not true–that she recanted quickly, or that she recanted within 24 hours?

The former.

If it’s the latter, you got a crazy definition of what “quickly” means in application to “recanted a confession”.

Let me quote from the article:

@The prosecutor

‘She had numerous times to say the allegations were lies, but she didn’t.’

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Quartz

The former.

Let me quote from the article:

This doesn’t contradict what I said at all. If she recanted within 24 hours, that’s really quick for recanting an accusation–and it’s a speed that the justice system should incentivize, rather than ward against.

[RitterSport]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

This doesn’t contradict what I said at all. If she recanted within 24 hours, that’s really quick for recanting an accusation–and it’s a speed that the justice system should incentivize, rather than ward against.

Since I’m a bad Doper, I haven’t read any of the links or articles, just what I’ve seen in this thread. But, what I’ve seen makes me think she recanted within 24 hours of being contacted by police. That may have been some time after the initial accusation.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

“at least”? :dubious:

Yeah.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Whack-a-Mole

Yeah.

You are whack-a-loon.

[Ravenman]

@Quartz

Perhaps you should try taking me off Ignore and looking at my other threads.

Well I never! Just the sort of thing a lying hussy would say about Trump. I will NOT be leaving a tip!