Well, we really have not defined it all have we?
Do you want to postulate the relative horrors of a less violent date rape to a kidnap, tie-up, torture for a week rape vs what can happen in prison?
How do you want to mix and match them?
If the accusation is quickly recanted and discredited, then even though making the accusation was still a shitty and criminal thing to do, the outcome is nowhere near as bad as being raped. I definitely know which of those two ordeals I’d pick if I had to endure one of them, and it wouldn’t be the actual rape. And I’m pretty sure that if actually faced with that choice, you’d say the same.
Now of course, there’s the possibility of facing a false rape accusation that isn’t quickly recanted and discredited, and which does result in the undeserved destruction of a person’s whole life. That would of course be a much more serious violation.
But it’s ridiculous to suggest that any false accusation, no matter how quickly abjured and repented, ought to be punished as seriously as the crime of actually raping somebody.
:dubious: Sounds like in that case you’re blaming the prison rape entirely on the female false accuser rather than on the fellow inmate who actually commits the rape, which is a pretty clever trick.
The thing is that punishment for crimes is fundamentally supposed to be meted out according to who actually committed the harm and the amount of harm they actually committed.
Suppose an angry person lunges at you with a knife but changes their mind and backs off after inflicting one not-very-serious wound. We don’t throw them in jail for five consecutive life sentences on the grounds that what they did was just as bad as torture and murder because they might have tortured and murdered you, or might have incapacitated you to such an extent that somebody else who might have found you would have been able to torture and murder you.
That sort of exercise in speculative guilt is simply idiotic as a basis for criminal jurisprudence.
So you are on about degrees. Unwanted groping or date rape and all the gray areas date rape can get into or grinding on a dance floor and then sticking your tongue down the throat of your partner without consent or invading a home to commit rape.
You are happily minimizing the effects of a false accusation while maximizing the horrors of a rape.
Which is why I think the appropriate penalty is whatever the crime being falsely accused would get. Some rapes get relatively little punishment (rightly or wrongly…thinking of Brock Turner who I think deserved more) and some rapes are decades long things.
Yet despite all that I get that throwing the book at false accusers just means they will never cop to it. I think it is more important that the innocent go free so I think it is better that false accusers don’t have to do much more than a fine and/or community service so they are not discouraged from setting things right.
What is speculative about it?
Being accused of rape carries significant criminal penalties.
Defending yourself carries significant legal costs.
Being accused of a heinous crime has real effects on your life (friends/family/work).
That all comes in to play as soon as the accusation is made. It only gets worse from there.
It is akin to you tying me up and then dipping me into a pool of piranhas and suggesting you have nothing to do with the piranhas eating me.
These hypotheticals.
(Hypotheticals boldly bolded by me.)
Yes, I think hypothetically it would have an effect on my life. Possibly a serious effect, depending on how far it went. Or possibly very little effect if it were quickly recanted or proven false.
Dunno. I might.
Did the accused man in this story have to do that?
I do believe these atrocities occur, and that would be a horrendous fate to befall someone falsely accused of a crime . . . if that were to occur as a result of the accusation.
No, I don’t think that’s a minor thing. I sure hope it never happens to me, because, hypothetically, that would be horrible.
Good thing it didn’t happen to the falsely accused man in this story.
No; hypothetically I think I would find it very difficult to reclaim my life.
There is plenty of evidence that the things you have described are indeed potential consequences of a false allegation of sexual assault.
Can… if… may…
And yet you feel that it deserves the greater punishment, based purely on the potential damage it may cause.
At least your name is apt.
See post #65
Seen it.
See post #67.
I am OK with the fine given. False accusation of rape is not the global pandemic that MRAs make it out to be, nor is the social harm from a false rape accusation alone all that great - not in a world where actual rape is laughed off on a daily basis, even by the cops and judges.
Sorry, it’s those who claim I’ve said it’s common who have poisoned the well. You should try reading what I actually say, not what others say I say.
Easily foreseeable consequences of a false rape accusation: [ul]
[li] Innocent man gets 15 years in prison.[/li][li] Innocent man gets raped and/or murdered in prison because that’s what they do to rapists in prison.[/li][li] If innocent man survives prison, he is persona non grata for the rest of his life.[/ul][/li]
Alternatively: [ul]
[li] Innocent man is acquitted only to find he is still going to be persona non grata for the rest of his life (albeit in a quieter, more insidious way) because “there’s no smoke without fire.”[/li][li] Future genuine rape victims will have a harder time being believed, resulting in more actual rapists escaping punishment. [/ul][/li]
Again, these are all very easily foreseeable consequences of a false rape allegation. In fact, they’re so easily foreseeable that the false accuser should be held at least partially culpable if any of them occur.
Whether false accusations of rape are worse than rape is debatable, but it’s certainly not a crazy assertion.
Okay. You may be right. Let me just check.
Yep, there’s your problem.
The old “Us Vs Them” setup, combined with righteous indignation over a baseless supposition framed as a rhetorical question.
You’ve got four kinds of poison in that well.
Or:
Innocent man goes right back to his life, everyone who matters believes he truly was falsely accused, and is sympathetic. Life goes on as before.
And rapists *don’t *get extra shit in prison. You have them confused with paedophiles.
That last part is based on what I know about local prisons, of course the USA may be different.
That’s a bit circular.
Ask absolutely anyone who was formally and falsely accused of rape if the harm is only hypothetical.
Did you read my post? You called it inaccurate and irrelevant, and then agreed with what I said.
In many states in the US, the punishment for murder is, in fact, exactly as severe as murder itself. And while I’ve seen many objections to the death penalty, I’ve never seen the objection that it’s disproportionate.
And the punishment for theft is typically even more severe than the theft itself.
Umm… no.
Feel free to continue to wallow in your own ignorance.
Doesn’t work that way in real life. Say you’ve got two guys applying for the same job. The first is experienced and has great references. The second is experienced and has great references but you hear on the grape vine that he was arrested for rape but beat the rap. Something about getting his accuser to take it all back. You’re not clear on the details. Whatever. Anyway. Which one do you pick? Be honest.
Or let’s say you need someone to babysit your 13 year old daughter for an evening at short notice. Do you pick your cousin? Or your other cousin who once got accused of rape?
Or let’s say your female friend asks you to set her up with one of your male friends. Do you set her up with Dave, who’s a perfectly nice guy. Or do you set her up with Steve, who’s also a perfectly nice guy, but who was once arrested for rape? Be honest.
Or let’s look at yourself. If a friend of yours was accused of rape, and the accuser retracted the accusation, can you honestly tell me your friendship wouldn’t be negatively affected at all? Can you honestly tell me there wouldn’t be a small part of you that wouldn’t forever ask "What if…
In UK prisons rapists and pedophiles are the lowest of the low. They’re basically fair game. Even the murderers spit on them.
Well, of course. Punishment for crime is, as I said, based partly on the amount of actual harm done by the crime.
I don’t see anybody here making even the slightest suggestion that all acts of sexual assault or even rape itself should be judged or sentenced identically. It is, as you yourself said, about degrees.
No, I’m just trying to correct your tendency to happily minimize the effects of a rape while maximizing the horrors of a false accusation. Both can be extremely bad things, and both can be less bad things, depending on circumstances.
Which is still a ludicrously irrational basis for sentencing. The severity of punishment should correlate to the damage of the actual crime committed, not on the damage of a nonexistent completely hypothetical crime that never happened.
By your absurdly bass-ackwards reasoning, an accuser who falsely accused someone of a more mild form of sexual assault and stuck to that false claim all the way up through arrest and trial and imprisonment would get a lighter punishment than an accuser who made a false accusation of a really violent rape but retracted and apologized for the accusation almost immediately. Can you really not see how fucking stupid that idea is?
Hurray, an extremely belated victory for common sense!