The penalty for making a false allegation of rape? £200

[Crazy_Canuck]

@Kimstu

Okay then, tell me solemnly and sincerely that you’d be just as willing to be brutally and painfully beaten with serious injuries and a long recovery time as to be subjected to a false accusation of having similarly beaten another person. That doesn’t have the “finality” that you’re objecting to.

Sorry for the backstory, but I need to frame this properly.

Around 25 years ago, I was beaten into a three week long coma by five guys for the crime of being a filthy queer. I was left bleeding on the ground with multiple fractures, including my left hip being shattered. If someone hadn’t wandered by at the exact right time, I would have died there crying alone in the dirt. Little did I know at the time that the pain was just beginning, as I was in physio for months, and that shit hurt far more than the actual beating itself. I still have a limp and require a cane occasionally to this day, especially when I’m tired.

While I was in a coma, the judge gave those five a complete slap on the wrist. They were “good christian boys” who came from money and I was just queer white trash. They even showed up at the hospital once to gloat about how they got away with it.

Eight months later, I arranged a situation where me and the ringleader of those five boys were alone. I wanted to hurt him as badly as he hurt me, and I did. While I didn’t mean to kill him, he still ended up dying from his injuries, and I ended up getting a criminal record and going to jail over the incident. The crown had a very weak case, their strongest evidence was me calling an ambulance for him afterwards, so I got a fairly short sentence given the gravity of my crime. I’m a big dude, and I had no issues in prison. I kept my head down and did my time.

So when I tell you, honestly and sincerely, that I would without hesitation take being beaten into a coma over going through a criminal trial for beating someone, I hope you believe me.

THAT SAID - The following quote is also true.

@Whack-a-Mole

I think it is more important that the innocent go free so I think it is better that false accusers don’t have to do much more than a fine and/or community service so they are not discouraged from setting things right.

I think the heart of the delema is the question of whether you want life to to be fair, or do you want it to be just? Sometimes you can’t have both.

@Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control

In UK prisons rapists and pedophiles are the lowest of the low. They’re basically fair game. Even the murderers spit on them.

I asked a Scottish bloke I know who has actually spent time in a UK prison about this, as it did not match my experience in a Canadian prison, and funnily enough it didn’t match with his experience either. Do you have a cite, or shall I just assume you pulled this out of your ass?

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’m not sure what size penalty is appropriate.

Maybe someone can pretend/threaten to rape her for a while? Or maybe she can spend a few months working with victims so she can get a better idea of what she accused dude of doing to her?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Inigo_Montoya

Maybe someone can pretend/threaten to rape her for a while?

Jesus Christ, what the fuck?

Or maybe she can spend a few months working with victims so she can get a better idea of what she accused dude of doing to her?

This should be a small piece of it, sure.

[Inigo_Montoya]

First bit was dark humor. Doesn’t work for everyone.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Inigo_Montoya

First bit was dark humor. Doesn’t work for everyone.

Oh. Joking about threatening to rape someone is funny. Cool.

[Crazy_Canuck]

@Inigo_Montoya

First bit was dark humor. Doesn’t work for everyone.

I fucking love dark humor. The problem is that dark humor only works when there is actual real humor in it, and it usually doesn’t work when you just say something offensive and then use the “it was just a joke” defense.

[Kimstu]

@Crazy_Canuck

So when I tell you, honestly and sincerely, that I would without hesitation take being beaten into a coma over going through a criminal trial for beating someone, I hope you believe me.

I do, and I’m sorry for what happened to you, that sounds absolutely goddamned fucking shitty, and I don’t say that lightly.

That said, your example is comparing a serious and brutal beating not just to an accusation per se (which in your case didn’t happen to be false, though I certainly understand about the extenuating circumstances), but to a whole train of consequences including trial and imprisonment.

If somebody had falsely accused you of committing a serious and brutal beating but then retracted and apologized before your arrest and trial, I strongly doubt that you’d prefer enduring a serious and brutal beating to enduring that brief false accusation. That hypothetical is much more similar to what’s being discussed in this OP than your own example is.

We could of course spend all day weighing the niceties of exactly what degree of violent assault is as bad as, or not as bad as, exactly what set of consequences from a false accusation. My point with that comparison was simply that it’s ridiculous to assert that false accusations ought to be punished in accordance with the severity of the nonexistent crime falsely alleged by the accuser, rather than the severity of the actual crime that the false accuser committed in making the accusation.

Such an assertion is just a revenge fantasy dreamed up by scared people exaggerating the likelihood and the likely consequences of false accusations of crime.

[Not_Carlson]

@Kimstu

This sort of thinking is very typical of ingrained rape-culture attitudes in our society, in which it’s commonly assumed that rape is just “something men do”. It’s somehow a kind of natural hazard “akin” to being eaten by piranhas if you recklessly jump or get thrown into a piranha pool.

In this type of thinking, it’s women who are held primarily responsible for preventing rape by men, by making sure that they stay away from the piranha pool. If they somehow get into the piranha pool then it’s their doing if they get eaten, not the piranhas’. And naturally, if they maliciously push someone else into the piranha pool, then all the responsibility for that harm rests with them.

Of course, if we assume that men are not piranhas but self-aware human beings with control over and responsibility for their own actions, then this type of argument becomes absurd. But a lot of people are unconsciously willing to temporarily suspend that assumption in order to excuse men from some or all of the responsibility of committing sexual assault.

Excellent point, very pertinent to the argument and very well put.
Looks like it didn’t get through to its target though.

[Not_Carlson]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I didn’t say you said he was a rapist, fuckwit, I said you suggested it, dimwit. Which you did, nitwit. There’s no more evidence he’s arguing out of concern for himself than that you or I are arguing out of concern for ourselves, halfwit.

Ha! That was funny.

@Inigo_Montoya

First bit was dark humor. Doesn’t work for everyone.

That was not.

[Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control]

@Crazy Canuck

I asked a Scottish bloke I know who has actually spent time in a UK prison about this, as it did not match my experience in a Canadian prison, and funnily enough it didn’t match with his experience either. Do you have a cite, or shall I just assume you pulled this out of your ass?

My cite is my personal experience with English ex-cons. There’s no quarter for rapists in British prisons. You can pretty much do what you like to them. Much of the time, they’re sequestered for their own safety. Still, if you want an example, here’s one. This guy’s story is pretty typical in my experience.

Edit: To clarify, the ex-cons I know aren’t rapists. They’re people who either witnessed and/or took part in the victimisation of rapists, and frankly, I can’t find it in myself to judge them for that. Maybe that makes me a bad person, I dunno. It’s very, very hard to have any kind of sympathy for rapists.

[Not_Carlson]

@Crazy_Canuck

…I got a fairly short sentence given the gravity of my crime. I’m a big dude, and I had no issues in prison. I kept my head down and did my time.

So when I tell you, honestly and sincerely, that I would without hesitation take being beaten into a coma over going through a criminal trial for beating someone, I hope you believe me…

Firstly, thank you for sharing such a personal (and horrendous) story.

But could you please clarify: you are saying that your experience of being tried for GBH (just the trial, or the subsequent jail time too?) was worse than your ordeal from being grievously beaten?

I’m confused because your description of what you suffered when you were assaulted seems far more severe than your description of the trial and punishment you faced later.
Was there something especially traumatic you suffered during either or both the trial and/or your sentence that made it worse for you than being beaten into a coma? If so, and it’s something you’d rather not go into detail on, that’s fine. I’ll take your word for it.

Or am I just misunderstanding your post?

[Buck_Godot]

@RitterSport

This is a terrible idea. Someone who (horribly) made a false accusation would never be willing to recant that accusation. If she/he recants, she/he is guaranteed to get a rape-equivalent conviction, but if she/he doesn’t, she/he could at least roll the dice with the jury. Meanwhile, the accused has to continue moving through the justice system on a false accusation.

Secondly, it is going to cut down on what is already a heavily unreported crime. One of the main reasons it goes unreported is the fear that they won’t be believed. If you tack onto that the fact that if you aren’t believed you could be facing 3-6 years in the slammer, and believe me the defense is going to make that very clear to them.

Now of course if their actually telling the truth we all know that nothing will happen to them because the justice system always gets it right and there is not a jot of inconvenience to them, just like the justice system always gets it right and there is not a jot of inconvenience for those falsely accused of rape (oh wait).

So facing the possibility of putting your freedom in jeopardy for something that is already so incredibly difficult to do that 60% go unreported as it is, it’s smartest just to keep your mouth shut.

[Melbourne]

@Eonwe

It’s impossible to address this issue with thought and concern when it’s framed as being an analog to rape itself. You’ve poisoned the well in your own OP.

If the crime is serious, then let’s talk about that, instead of whinging about how women have it so much better then men because rapists get stronger convictions than false accusers.

@KJB

18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; 19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother […] 21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

I don’t think it’s impossible to address this issue when it’s framed as being an analog to rape itself. It’s one of the traditional ways of framing the issue.

[expectopatronum]

@Inigo_Montoya

Maybe someone can pretend/threaten to rape her for a while? Or maybe she can spend a few months working with victims so she can get a better idea of what she accused dude of doing to her?

Are you fucking serious with this shit?

[Miller]

@Inigo_Montoya

First bit was dark humor. Doesn’t work for everyone.

[Moderating]
Doesn’t work for this board in general. Don’t do that shit again.
[/Moderating]

[Sunny_Daze]

@Melbourne

@Eonwe

It’s impossible to address this issue with thought and concern when it’s framed as being an analog to rape itself. You’ve poisoned the well in your own OP.

If the crime is serious, then let’s talk about that, instead of whinging about how women have it so much better then men because rapists get stronger convictions than false accusers.

Originally Posted by KJB
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; 19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother […] 21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

I don’t think it’s impossible to address this issue when it’s framed as being an analog to rape itself. It’s one of the traditional ways of framing the issue.

You are quoting the Old Testament to make your argument. The Old Testament, that bastion of logic, which endorsed slavery and all kinds of forward thinking. Why only a few verses ahead of the ones you quoted we find this:

From the KJB Deuteronomy 19:2
As when a man goeth into the wood with his neighbour to hew wood, and his hand fetcheth a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slippeth from the helve, and lighteth upon his neighbour, that he die; he shall flee unto one of those cities, and live:

That’s right, kids. If you didn’t mean it, just run away and live in the city. You’ll be fine.

Here’s another good one. The Old Testament is super awesome for women’s rights. Well, if you believe that women are property.

From the KJB Deuteronomy 25:5
If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.

Your husband dies, and you get handed off to the next guy in line. Neat!

How about this one:

From the KJM Exodus 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

If you disrespect your parents, you get killed. I could go on for quite a long time, but the Old Testament gets, well, old.

But don’t let that stop you. You should absolutely use the Old Testament to make your arguments. It is clearly well rooted in “reason.”

[MarvinKitFox]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

There’s an implication here, especially in your final sentence, that a false accusation of rape is equivalent to an actual rape. Is that something you genuinely believe?

Actual rape: Victim survives, can resume life. Has deep-seated feeling of being betrayed. Has some really horrid memories that can cause psychological & relational impairment for years.

False rape accusation, successfully convicted: Victim (the accused) goes to jail. Has deep-seated feeling of being betrayed. Can NOT resume life for 15+years, and then only in a very reduced format. Has some really horrid memories that can cause psychological & relational impairment for years. Criminal and sex-offender status for rest of life, employment + financial + travel opportunities drastically impaired.

Sorry, but being convicted of rape, when innocent, is actually somewhat worse than being raped.

(not to mention that being a sentenced rapist in jail is a virtual 100% chance of being repeatedly raped yourself while in jail)

[MrDibble]

@MarvinKitFox

Actual rape: Victim survives

Not always…

, can resume life. Has deep-seated feeling of being betrayed. Has some really horrid memories that can cause psychological & relational impairment for years.

Sure, sure, keep telling yourself that the worst consequence of rape is just bad feelings.

Not horrible physical effects, ranging from pregnancy (which, in certain places, will have to be carried to term), to fistulas, to STDs, to all the other physical injuries that often accompany rape (not going to post links, there shouldn’t be a need to list the litany of physical trauma that goes hand in hand with most rape - suffice to say the prevalence of genito-anal injury in reported sexual assaults is in the high majority). Naah, “just” bad feelings and memories.

Sorry, but being convicted of rape, when innocent, is actually somewhat worse than being raped.

Like fuck, it is. :mad:

[Not_Carlson]

(Bolding mine.)

@MarvinKitFox

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

There’s an implication here, especially in your final sentence, that a false accusation of rape is equivalent to an actual rape. Is that something you genuinely believe?

Actual rape: Victim survives, can resume life. Has deep-seated feeling of being betrayed. Has some really horrid memories that can cause psychological & relational impairment for years.

False rape accusation, successfully convicted: Victim (the accused) goes to jail. Has deep-seated feeling of being betrayed. Can NOT resume life for 15+years, and then only in a very reduced format. Has some really horrid memories that can cause psychological & relational impairment for years. Criminal and sex-offender status for rest of life, employment + financial + travel opportunities drastically impaired.

Sorry, but being convicted of rape, when innocent, is actually somewhat worse than being raped.

(not to mention that being a sentenced rapist in jail is a virtual 100% chance of being repeatedly raped yourself while in jail)

Two problems here, Marvin:

1. You’re conflating the potential punishment and outcomes suffered from a rape allegation with the act (the accusation) itself. This is not hair-splitting; it’s the difference between what is actually done and what might befall. (Now if a court could prove, based on circumstances, that a particular false allegation constituted a deliberate, calculated and malicious attempt to inflict grave suffering on the falsely accused person, I think a serious punishment based on the intended harm would be in order.)

2. You seem to be assuming, perhaps hyperbolically, that the very worst would befall someone falsely accused of sexual assault. Not only does the story that started this thread appear to not support your supposition, I can also think of at least one recent case of a convition for actual sexual assault in which the sentence passed and the jail time served in no way approached the level of severity that you have suggested to be the almost inevitable fate of anyone accused of rape.
   Perhaps you’ve heard of this case. It’s gained quite a bit of notoriety.

As for your assertion that all rapists are 100% guaranteed to be similarly assaulted in jail, while ignorant on this matter, I am rather sceptical. I would have thought there were high enough numbers of people doing time for sexual assault to make them not particularly a target for rough treatment from inmates, without special circumstances.

[Delicious]

@begbert2

I’ll just start by saying that it’s pretty clear that the young woman very easily could have suffered a much stiffer sentence, but only barely dodged it due to extenuating circumstances of age and behavior. Saying that her light sentence destroys the deterrent effect against falsifying rape claims is like saying that when a child steals a candy bar he must be put through a trial by jury or it’s undermining the legal system.

That said, I don’t know what she would have gotten absent the extenuating circumstances, but I certainly hope it would be less than if she’d actually raped someone, because that would be bumfuck stupid.

It sounds like you’re saying that prison is cruel and unusual punishment. Which very well may be the case - though, wait, I only know about american prisons. Are british prisons unconstitutional hellholes too?

We get around that by not having a constitution.