Sure, but I think this example draws the line in the wrong place. I’ll use a similar example to yours. This isn’t a choice between one candidate plucking out your eyes and the other killing you. It’s more like one that grabs you a little too hard while pulling you out a swimming pool you’re drowning in (because they aren’t an expert lifeguard, not due to malicious intent) vs. one that holds you down in the water.
Sounds good, but here’s the thing, if someone didn’t vote for Harris, then there was only one outcome, only one. So, IMHO, fuck those who didn’t vote for Harris (oh it’s so terrible that Joe was old and Harris is black or boring or whatever) because what they’ve done (and this was predictable and obvious btw*) is contribute to the destruction of the post-WWII order, which did not happen by accident.
That people chose not to vote for somebody obviously moral and honest (Harris for those who can’t see this) just astonish the crap out of me. And now the world is stuck with this shit.
*I’ve said this before, however. I can watch Trump speak for no more than five minutes to recognize that he’s a bullshitter. I’ve seen his type over and over in various settings, who are shallow, stupid, and spin loads of crap with no factual evidence. It simply astonishes me that so many have been taken in by this.
This is what I have been saying!
Besides which for a choice to be “the lesser of two evils” we need two evils. I think we all agree that Trump is evil. How exactly is Harris evil? She may hold positions that you disagree with. But, how is she evil?
This is a fundamental, basic question. And it applies to Hillary as well.
As O’Rourke said of Hillary Clinton, she’s so wrong but she’s wrong within normal parameters.
Even assuming I know for an absolute certainty that humanity is better off with normie democracy in the U.S., this is only true if the election is won by a one vote margin in your state, and your state is decisive. The probability is vanishingly low. Do I have a moral obligation to intervene? No. Once I pressed a button to stop a train because children were playing on tracks in the middle of a bridge. The police said I did the right thing, but those who left the buttons alone were not monsters. It was a judgment call on a low risk.
P.S. In case anyone is wondering why the driver didn’t see the situation, I was on a driverless transit system.
The good question is, are they pulling anyone out at all? If you are a rich business owner or comfortable bourgeois, are you really worried about the Democratic Party rocking the boat?
Oh great, “probably”. Therefore it’s “idiotic” to not vote for her.
Once again: I advised everyone I know to vote Harris, because my guess* would also have been that her administration would be less pro-genocide than the current one.
However, the situation is that there has been a year and a half of the US providing weapons and aid to Israel, vetoing international action, and, importantly, quieting voices that even wanted to talk about these issues.
Try to imagine this from the perspective of someone who may have even lost family members in the bombardment and knows of others who are at grave risk.
I don’t blame such people from thinking there were no good options and sitting it out; not giving their endorsement to someone who has aided and abetted the genocide and made no pledge to stop doing so.
* Rhetoric aside, has it even been that different at this point? Trump has pretty much done nothing. About the only substantive change has been releasing the block on sending munitions like the M-84 bombs, but before the block Biden gave Israel thousands of such bombs, so Trump still has some catching up to do.
You just said “The probability is vanishingly low.” So you are not denying that your vote could indeed make a difference?
First, I disagree and say you certainly do have a moral obligation to intervene. If you know something evil is about to happen and you can prevent it without endangering yourself, absolutely you have a moral obligation to intervene.
I wouldn’t use the word “monsters”. However, when a hate-filled toddler fascist is running for President and you don’t vote for the only other candidate who has a reasonable chance of winning, you have allowed him to win. I wouldn’t use the word monster here either. How does the quote go “All that is necessary for evil men to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” ? To allow evil is to be responsible for evil.
I was wondering why I just said “Probably.” without explanations or qualifiers. I looked at the post you quoted. I did give explanations and qualifiers.
I wouldn’t call it a “guess”. It was a prediction based on their track records and previous statements.
Who said anything about endorsement*? While I believe the sane and logical thing would (for the reasons I listed and that you left out when you quoted me) would have been to endorse Harris, they didn’t need to do that. These voters could have quietly and privately agreed to vote Harris without making a public endorsement. They could have even simply gone to the polls and voted Harris in secret. Instead, as you admit they did nothing. So rather than voting for a sane person who would likely (based on track record and previous statements) continue current policies, they sat back and allowed Trump to win. Trump, correct me if I’m wrong, enacted a Muslim travel ban in his first term. He sold special Trump Bibles during his campaign. He is a hate-filled toddler.
*Unless you mean something else by endorsement.
So, the choices were-
Vote Harris and probably (based on her track record and previous statements) people will continue to die.
Vote Trump and probably (again based on his track record, previous statements, and actions during his first term) a lot more people will die.
Vote for another candidate. I have explained at least twice in this thread why that doesn’t work in a Presidential election.
Not vote at all. I have explained above how this is just sitting back and allowing evil to happen.
Are you saying his plan for the US to take control of Gaza, forcibly remove the people and turn it into a resort was just “rhetoric”? I remember after he said that, some Republicans made statements ‘clarifying’ his words and explaining ‘what he really meant’. The next day, Trump made another statement explaining he meant exactly what he had said.
I disagree rather strongly that it was rhetoric. He said he would do it. Twice. He wanted to do it. Somebody, behind the scenes, talked him out of it. I am not sure how they did or why they did it. I also cannot say whether they got Trump to drop the idea entirely, or whether he was just talked into postponing it.
How so? Tens of thousands of ghosts would beg to differ.
And in terms of statements, basic lip-service about peace is the same thing even Trump does.
I mean voting as a form of endorsement. Imagine for a moment that the Palestinian supporting voting bloc had all voted Harris.
The Democrats would then know they can show two fingers to that bloc next time and it will make no difference. Just open season in Gaza; there won’t be electoral consequences.
Your turn it seems to miss the context.
I did not say the rhetoric didn’t matter, or wasn’t his plan, I was simply making the observation that, so far, nothing’s changed in Gaza. So the various claims of people getting their faces eaten…yeah, same as they were prior to the election.
I’m genuinely unsure what you mean here. You mean that -
Why exactly do you call it a “guess”? And what was that “guess” based on?
And voting Trump, or sitting out the election could have very well resulted in the end of American democracy and there not being a next election.
Here is what you said-
So, did you mean that Trump announcing a plan to seize control of Gaza, forcibly relocate the population, and build a resort doesn’t count because somebody stopped him?
If you did not mean that, please explain just what you did mean.
Trump and those with him are targeting people who support the Palestinians, and have always intended a general persecution of Muslims. Forget what’s happening on the other side of the world, these people decided to enable their own persecution and likely deaths.
They just hated the Democrats so much they were willing to throw both themselves and the Palestinians to the wolves out of sheer spite. It always comes down to suicidal malice with the people who enable Trump.
I agree with the hate part but not spite; it didn’t come from nowhere.
What’s happening in this thread, and others that cover this topic, is I (or another poster) give reasons why some people may have not been able to bring themselves to vote for this particular Dem administration.
And other posters give no acknowledgement or response whatsoever to those reasons. They just repeat “But Trump is worse”. Yes I know Trump is worse.
But can we get some engagement on the points? If you had family members that had died and you know they died to American-made weapons, and when you try to go to the DNC to try to talk about it, the door is slammed in your face…would you still dutifully vote D?
Personally, I’m not sure…I think I might have been able to hold my nose, but I understand those that couldn’t.
I don’t know what’s difficult about it, frankly.
When I started that point with “Rhetoric aside” I mean “Let’s look at the current status of the situation; the actual events for a moment”. It does not mean “Rhetoric and plans don’t matter”.
I can comprehend those that couldn’t. But I cannot empathize or sympathize with them. Which is what “understand” usually encompasses.
I can comprehend how a shitty situation coupled to shitty quality thinking and an emotions-first approach to daily living might conspire to cause those people to make decisions contrary to their own interests and those of literally all Americans outside trump’s immediate family.
But I will never “understand” them doing so. Nor excuse them.
Everyone who could legally vote and did not vote for Harris is complicit in what has happened and will happen under trump. Everyone. Some more than others, but nobody is scot-free of responsibility for their (in)actions. Nobody.
Repeating myself from upthread:
So I try very hard not to judge too much unless someone volunteers their circumstances. But if they do… well, then yes, I’ll judge by my standards, even if they feel that their own is superior. We are all human.
To be clear, I don’t personally believe in moral absolutes, but that’s a GD sort of thread and I don’t want to hijack. So I, and I suspect almost everyone in this thread, is judging on a subjective set of moral values. So I can and do understand if someone chose to not vote because they felt that their particular wedge issue wasn’t being addressed. They have that right. But I’m absolutely going to judge them, and will have only a limited sympathy when the leopard once again, eats their faces.
It doesn’t say the nicest things about me, but I am some hypothetical Christ-like figure either. This isn’t a nice Philosophy 101 classroom where the trolley problem happens in a nice, sanitized location, this is happening in a real world with real consequences, most of which were completely predictable.
[ feel free to look upthread for where I posted all the various provisos and other factors that might mitigate my feelings and judgement ]
Thank you. I was trying to fgure out how to say this properly. You did it for me.
This is not about any ‘duty’ to the Democratic party. Nor am I saying these voters did not have a legitimate grievance.
It isn’t just that he is “worse”. It was even when campaigning, he was clearly a hate-filled fascist who would end our system of government and install himself as dictator for life if elected. Yeah, you could say that is “worse”. This is much like saying being disemboweled with a rusty knife is “worse” than a papercut.
Trump is not just some politician I disagree with or who has failed me in the past. That would be ( I forget who posted this) “bad within normal parameters.”. I cannot remember just which Trump threads I have posted the Helga story in. I may have already posted it in this one. Here is a short version- Helga lived in Germany during Hitler’s rise to power. She and her husband somehow survived the camps. I personally saw her tattoo. Helga lectured at schools on bigotry and the holocaust. About the first time Trump became the Republican nominee, Helga said to me “He reminds me of Hitler.”
The creator of Godwin’s Law said that comparisons of Trump to Hitler were accurate and the law did not apply to discussions of Trump.
It was not a case of ‘We will not vote for Harris and the Democrats will learn and change their positions and actions for the next election’. At least, it was not that to anybody who could see Trump for what he is. It was a case of ‘You can either vote Harris or let a hate-filled fascist become President and dsimantle the government. If Trump wins, there may never be a free, open and meaningful election ever again.’ Plus ‘If Trump wins, it is likely he will strip Constitutional rights from everybody but cis hetero white Christian men.’
Yes, Palestine is an important issue. Yes the Democrats do not have clean hands. If you wanted Palestinians to live, and for Arab Americans and Muslim Americans to have rights- you needed to vote Harris.
As I said before, Harris was at worst a politician you disagreed with. In this case, you may even hold her responsible for human deaths.
Trump is a hate-filled fascist who spewed bigotry and Christian Nationalism openly during his campaign. He made no secret of what he would do if elected.
This not a choice between two meals you dislike. It is the choice between eating a meal you don’t like or wandering off to starve in the wilderness.
I forgot something rather important-
Trump has revoked the visas of college students for the ‘crime’ of being openly pro Palestinian.
Trump has threatened to withhold funding from colleges for allowing people to peacefully speak and assemble for pro Palestinian demonstrations.
I admit I know very little about visas. I suspect that revoking a student visa because the student in question has views you don’t like and advocates for the legal advancement of those positions, is not actually legal. Under the current administration, I don’t expect it to stop.
Withholding funding from a college because people excercised their first amendment rights? I’m guessing that is illegal as well. I don’t expect that to stop either.
Would either of these things have happened if Harris were President?
PJ O’Rourke on Wait Wait.
Of course not.
But many of the non-voters think those actions are just fine, many other non-voters don’t know those things are happening and of those who do know, many don’t care because they care about literally nothing except their teeny world of job, rent, and their preferred entertainment.