The People's Republic of Texas? Secession question

Factual Questions
41

Doghouse: Alpine is about 80 miles north of the Rio Grande. But–since there are no cities between here and there (just desert) and we’re the first crossroads north of the border–we are legally classified as the “functional border”… which means our civil rights are respected just as much as if we lived on the Rio itself!

Mexican-Americans in this region are fiercely proud of Mexico and their Mexican heritage. Holidays like Cinco de Mayo are celebrated here with almost as much fanfare as the fourth of July–by both the Mexican and non-Mexican populations (we’re about 60-40 hispanic). That said, they’re also patriotic Americans and proud Texans. I can’t say that there is any great disgust of the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, although there is, at times, a vocal minority of more militant “chicanos”… they usually pop up whenever the University offers a course in Mexican-American History. But even the more politically charged amongst our hispanic population are proud to be Texan. It bears mentioning that most of our local Border Patrol agents are hispanic; their loyalties are unquestionable.

(Me? South Texas heritage; mostly Irish ancestry!)

42

First, you have to postulate a state getting so fed up with the situation to want to leave. Then you have to assume there was no way to remedy the situation without leaving. This would probably require one state getting more pissed off than the others, who stay happy. Why? Because if all the states are equally pissed off, they could make changes through legislation. Duh. If Congress fails to act despite the ire of citizens across the country, then it’s time to replace them. Apathy, schmapathy. If you think your state is getting a raw deal at the federal level, get into politics. Write your reps and senators. Join political groups. Raise public awarness. VOTE. Run for office.

Okay, tirade over. Let’s assume Texas gets pissed off but all the rest of the states are happy. Could Texas leave? I don’t know if there are legal methods in place, but if not they could be created. However, you have to get the rest of the U.S. to agree that Texas leaving is okay, because if they don’t agree it could get testy.

Things like the welfare state, highways, schools, things dependant on federal money would not be a hindrance. Texas wouldn’t pay any tax money to the U.S., so that money could be redistributed within the state. Assuming an amicable break up, trade would not be stopped. If it weren’t amicable, then Texas would look to international trading partners, and probably find someone willing to provide what they need.

I don’t think Texas would immediately start thinking “Who do we invade?” Come on. Issues with Mexico might arise, but I don’t see it leading to war, certainly not a war to take them over. There might be some incentive to rejoin with Mexico, though given their economic state, I doubt it.

Frankly, I don’t see it happening. Despite the militia groups and Republic of Texas folks, most Texans are happy to be U.S. citizens as well, and regard those separatists as the loonies they are.

Could there be war if a state tried to leave without permission? Yes. But the reasons go to why that state is seceding and how they are going about it. Grabbing a bunch of guns and saying “We’re independent now!” ain’t going to do it, and will (rightly so) be seen as a coup by a bunch of nuts and will require intervention. If a state is sincere about wanting to leave, they will seek formal, diplomatic means, including a state referendum for starters to make sure the citizens of that state are in agreement they want to go. That’s not something the governor or state assembly can decide. If it got that far, then the U.S. gov would have to start taking it seriously. And if they got that far, then using the DoI as a source would be legitimate.

43

I should have clarified that bit about the Declaration. According to the Library of Congress, the DoI falls under the category of “Early Congressional Documents,” along with the papers of the Continental Congress and the Articles of Confederation.

These documents are considered “precursor documents” that do, in fact, carry some weight in the consideration of constitutional law. According to THOMAS: “Often, contributions to Constitutional interpretation are set by precedent, custom and usage.”

Therefore, if a state were to attempt to form a legal basis for secession, it would have to a) cite the Declaration of Independence as the moral (if not overtly legal) bedrock that allows for secession; and b) come up with a novel legal argument that bypasses the Civil War-era decisions which eroded the perceived ability for states to secede.

Keep in mind that there is little precedent for nonviolent secession in American history (although one might look to the practice of other former British colonies for advice). Step c) might involve something like, “form a militia, and pray for a miracle.”

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/abt_const.html

44

Thanks for the THOMAS cite, Sofa. I’ll have to modify my stance on the DoI now. Interesting to read exactly how the US classifies this document.

And here’s something for the ‘Independant Nation’ status folks to consider. Add a chunk of my own state of Louisiana to the ‘formerly independant’ ranks.

When Jefferson purchased Louisiana from Napolean in 1803 he got a whole lot more than what we now call Louisiana. All or part of 14 states were carved from the Lousiana Purchase. But what he did NOT buy was that part of modern-day Louisiana that lies north of Lake Pontchartrain and east of the Mississippi River. In T. Jefferson’s day, this was part of Florida which was still in the hands of Spain (the Florida panhandle extended across the entire Gulf shore). Today those parishes that make up this portion of Louisiana are known as the Florida Parishes. (Side note: we have parishes, rather than counties in La.)

Now, here’s the rub… In November of 1810, the residents of that area drew up a constitution, declared themselves separate and independant of Spain and formed the West Florida Republic. It didn’t last long. The US forcibly annexed the fledgling nation and by 1812, Louisiana, with its present day boarders, was admitted into the union.

So there you have another independant nation now within the boarders of the US.

Although I would daresay that most residents of the region are completely unaware of this history (I was born there and was only recently able to ferret out some details) there’s at least one nut who wants the territory back.

Check out: http://burn.ucsd.edu/HyperNews/get/forums/corkboard/134.html
http://www.geocities.com/~jthunderbird/gch.html

Can’t decide it he’s just playing this thing for all it’s worth (and laughing all the way) or if he’s an actual nut case.

45

Regarding attempts by would-be nations, what does it take for a few scheeming yokels to be a legit independent nation? The problem with the “Republics” of California, West Florida, and Vermont is that they lacked any internation support. They were essentially the olde-tyme equivalent of the Montana Freemen or the West Texas “Republic of Texas”, just without the media support and the ATF, FBI, etc., to eventually bust their party. Texas and Hawai’i both were recognized by the international community. Texas was acknowledged by Mexico (begrudgingly, I admit: we did have a gun to Santa Ana’s head), and had embassies in at least the US and UK.

So getting to be your own coutry is kinda like getting to finally join the “clique”! You can sit in your corner and be pleasant and say your piece and express your idealogy… but until you are acknowledged by the “international clique” you lack true nation status. It’s kinda like how the SDMB is a microcosm of global affairs!

(…at least that’s the impression I get from threads in MPSIMS and the BBQ Pit!)

46

One big thing you’re going to have to do if you secede from the country is to stake out some territory and establish sovereignty over it. This could be pretty hard to do in the US as you are likely to have a US military presence somewhere in your “sovereign territory.”
Assuming you can stake out some territory, you need to get the rest of the world to recognize, or at least one big country for starters.
Then you better start doing things like issuing currency, delivering your own mail, asking to join the UN, stuff like that.

Or you could be like the fringe elements that just secede and say that they don’t recognize any other authority except their own. That’s fine until someone calls you on it. Then you’re in trouble.