The Phrase: "In Dutch"

[John_Mace]

@samclem

Just a guess. I’m born in 1944, lived in Virginia until 1971, then Ohio until now.

I think it’s more of a generational thing rather than location. It was probably dying out between the generation when I was born and when you were.

Sounds reasonable.

[gracer]

I’m English and Dutch

Yes, ‘“Dutch” this and “Dutch” that’ are still in common (UK) usage in many forms. Dutch courage was mentioned, going Dutch/Dutch treat, double Dutch. Not heard very often, but occasionally. Whenever someone says it they always ask me where the expression comes from, indicating, as has already been mentioned, that the English don’t see a connection between “bad” and “Dutch” anymore. Phew.

Got to say though, Mangosteen, not sure what you mean by:

Any Dutch people here on SD? Or at least some people from the Netherlands?

Dutch = people from the Netherlands

And no, in Dutch expressions we are obviously not the bad guys Was that what you wanted to ask?

[Chronos]

Quoth SanVito:

Thought of another - talking double dutch = talking nonsense.

Huh, in the US, “Double Dutch” is jumping rope with two ropes at once. Usually there’s one kid in the middle jumping, with two other kids at the ends twirling the ropes, with all of them chanting some rhyme to keep count of how long the jumper can keep jumping.

[Mangosteen]

@gracer

I’m English and Dutch

Yes, ‘“Dutch” this and “Dutch” that’ are still in common (UK) usage in many forms. Dutch courage was mentioned, going Dutch/Dutch treat, double Dutch. Not heard very often, but occasionally. Whenever someone says it they always ask me where the expression comes from, indicating, as has already been mentioned, that the English don’t see a connection between “bad” and “Dutch” anymore. Phew.

Got to say though, Mangosteen, not sure what you mean by:
Dutch = people from the Netherlands

And no, in Dutch expressions we are obviously not the bad guys Was that what you wanted to ask?

Wiki says that almost 20% of the population in the Netherlands is not “Dutch”. This is why I asked the question in the manner I did.

*The ideologies associated with (Romantic) Nationalism of the 19th and 20th centuries never really caught on in the Netherlands, and this, together with being a relatively mono-ethnic society up until the late 1950s, has led to a relatively obscure use of the terms nation and ethnicity as both were largely overlapping in practice. Today, despite other ethnicities making up 19.6% of the Netherlands’ population, this obscurity continues in colloquial use, in which Nederlander sometimes refers to the ethnic Dutch and Frisians, sometimes to anyone possessing Dutch citizenship.[42]

However, the (re)definition of Dutch cultural identity has become a subject of public debate in recent years following the increasing influence of the European Union and the influx of non-Western immigrants in the post-World War II period. In this debate ‘typically Dutch traditions’ have been put to the foreground.[43]*

[polar_bear]

@Mangosteen

Wiki says that almost 20% of the population in the Netherlands is not “Dutch”. This is why I asked the question in the manner I did.

*The ideologies associated with (Romantic) Nationalism of the 19th and 20th centuries never really caught on in the Netherlands, and this, together with being a relatively mono-ethnic society up until the late 1950s, has led to a relatively obscure use of the terms nation and ethnicity as both were largely overlapping in practice. Today, despite other ethnicities making up 19.6% of the Netherlands’ population, this obscurity continues in colloquial use, in which Nederlander sometimes refers to the ethnic Dutch and Frisians, sometimes to anyone possessing Dutch citizenship.[42]

However, the (re)definition of Dutch cultural identity has become a subject of public debate in recent years following the increasing influence of the European Union and the influx of non-Western immigrants in the post-World War II period. In this debate ‘typically Dutch traditions’ have been put to the foreground.[43]*

Yeah, not really an issue in real life. You’re Dutch if you have the nationality of the Kingdom of the Netherlands… just as you would say for Americans and American citizenship, I would think. You can be Moroccan-Dutch if being associated by orange clad milk chuggers bothers you.

I don’t think anyone really cares about these negative connotations; most are probably proud that (as a small country) we have managed to bug the Brits (and Yanks?) so much that these expressions are still in use.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Mangosteen

Is “Dutch” this and “Dutch” that (in the sense we are discussing here) still in common usage in Britain today?

Any Dutch people here on SD? Or at least some people from the Netherlands?

I’m Dutch, but I’m not from the Netherlands.

It confounds me to this day that anyone who uses “Dutch” pejoritively or those who hear it see nothing wrong with the usage.

And no matter how hard I try, I just can’t get myself offended over it either. Or know any other Dutchman who is offended by “Dutch whatever” as well. Which is why I don’t read much negatively when someone says he “jewed” the other guy down. At least that says something positive or skillful about the negotiator.

[samclem]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

I’m Dutch, but I’m not from the Netherlands.

Explain, please.

@The Flying Dutchman

It confounds me to this day that anyone who uses “Dutch” pejoritively or those who hear it see nothing wrong with the usage.

And no matter how hard I try, I just can’t get myself offended over it either. Or know any other Dutchman who is offended by “Dutch whatever” as well. Which is why I don’t read much negatively when someone says he “jewed” the other guy down. At least that says something positive or skillful about the negotiator.

You possibly don’t see the difference because you’re “Dutch.”

People of Dutch origins generally haven’t been oppressed in the last 500 years the way that a few minority groups have----I’m speaking of Blacks/African Americans/ and Jews. They haven’t just been “oppressed” as much as killed/indentured/other forms of treatment that you wouldn’t do to an animal.

Have you ever had to enter a restaurant/bar in the rear, because a sign said "Dutch, use the rear entrance? Ever encounter a sign over a separate drinking fountain that says “Dutch.” Ever seen a real estate deed covenant that says “no Dutch?”

I doubt that the “Dutch” have ever had to endure what those two minority groups have had to. That’s the difference. IMHO.

[MOIDALIZE]

There are only two things I can’t stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people’s cultures…and the Dutch.

Soooooooo…when they say something is “hotter than Dutch love,” are we talking exceptionally hot, or comically lukewarm?

[ElvisL1ves]

I doubt it has anything to do with people from the Netherlands. In US slang at least, Dutch commonly meant German, from a mispronunciation of Deutsch. Many if not all of the terms listed above refer to Germans. Hell, even the Pennsylvania Dutch had their ancestry in Germany.

So I’ll go with the origins being from English speakers making fun of a mass of funny-talking immigrants.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@samclem

Explain, please.

Born in Holland, but raised and living in Canada since 6 weeks of age.

You possibly don’t see the difference because you’re “Dutch.”

People of Dutch origins generally haven’t been oppressed in the last 500 years the way that a few minority groups have----I’m speaking of Blacks/African Americans/ and Jews. They haven’t just been “oppressed” as much as killed/indentured/other forms of treatment that you wouldn’t do to an animal.

Have you ever had to enter a restaurant/bar in the rear, because a sign said "Dutch, use the rear entrance? Ever encounter a sign over a separate drinking fountain that says “Dutch.” Ever seen a real estate deed covenant that says “no Dutch?”

I doubt that the “Dutch” have ever had to endure what those two minority groups have had to. That’s the difference. IMHO.

That is true and I’m quite aware of that. Although in my early years I suffered discrimination and hate in what must have been a time warp of the 1950s living in a United Empire Loyalist town that didn’t appreciate the influx of European immigrants. It didn’t stick. You know

Wooden shoes
Wooden head
Wouldn’t listen

I would compare myself more to the Irish (Don’t call them Paddies), the Germans (don’t call them Krauts) , the Poles(don’t call them Pollacks), the Ukrainians,(don’t call them Hunky, or the Italians who have several nicknames that are taboo for the politically correct.

Now the “Frogs” I do find offensive

It seem okay to say what you want about the Dutch, the Scots and the English

[Elendil_s_Heir]

“Dutch treat” was a somewhat rare slang phrase in my youth for going on a date, with each person paying separately.

Ronald Reagan’s nickname in his youth was “Dutch.” I forget why.

[gracer]

@Mangosteen

Wiki says that almost 20% of the population in the Netherlands is not “Dutch”. This is why I asked the question in the manner I did.

*The ideologies associated with (Romantic) Nationalism of the 19th and 20th centuries never really caught on in the Netherlands, and this, together with being a relatively mono-ethnic society up until the late 1950s, has led to a relatively obscure use of the terms nation and ethnicity as both were largely overlapping in practice. Today, despite other ethnicities making up 19.6% of the Netherlands’ population, this obscurity continues in colloquial use, in which Nederlander sometimes refers to the ethnic Dutch and Frisians, sometimes to anyone possessing Dutch citizenship.[42]

However, the (re)definition of Dutch cultural identity has become a subject of public debate in recent years following the increasing influence of the European Union and the influx of non-Western immigrants in the post-World War II period. In this debate ‘typically Dutch traditions’ have been put to the foreground.[43]*

Ah, I see. What an odd description, I wonder who wrote that. If they are referring to Dutch as descriptive of ethnicity they should probably go and inform the Germans & Belgians that they are, in fact, ethnically Dutch. AFAIK it’s only in use as descriptive of nationality. The 19.6% are also Dutch. But national identity is a strange thing…

[Elendil_s_Heir]

*Nigel Powers: *There’s only two things I hate in this world: people who are intolerant of other people’s cultures, and the Dutch.

[rbaselt]

“In dutch” is an American phrase, refers to the Amish (often called “Pennsylvania Dutch”) practice of shunning as a form of punishment.

[bob_2]

Some of you are correct: The most authoritative source I know for the etymological origin of words is “World Wide Words” Here is what Michael had to say:

In the seventeenth century, the Dutch and British were enemies. Both wanted maritime superiority for economic reasons, especially control of the sea routes from the rich spice islands of the East Indies.

The two countries fought three wars at sea between the years 1652 and 1674. At the lowest point of the struggle, in May 1667, the Dutch sailed up the Medway, sank a lot of ships, and blockaded the Thames. The Dutch were powerful, they were the enemy, they were the bad guys, and their name was taken in vain at every opportunity.

The stereotype of the Dutchman among the English at this period was somebody stolid, miserly, and bad-tempered, and these associations, especially the stinginess, were linked to several phrases. Only a small number of them are actually recorded in print from the time of the Dutch wars, most being of eighteenth century provenance or later. But there’s nothing so long-lasting as traditional enmity; later phrases borrowed the ideas from earlier ones, and in any case many are certainly older than their date of first recording.

Examples from the time of the Dutch wars include Dutch reckoning, a bill that is presented without any details, and which only gets bigger if you question it, and a Dutch widow, a prostitute. In the same spirit, but recorded later, are Dutch courage, temporary bravery induced by alcohol; Dutch metal, an alloy of copper and zinc used as a substitute for gold foil; Dutch comfort or Dutch consolation, in which somebody might say “thank God it is no worse!”; Dutch concert, in which each musician plays a different tune; and Dutch uncle, someone who criticises or rebukes you with the frankness of a relative.

However, a Dutch auction is strictly not a member of this set, since it refers to a real practice, still used today for example in the Netherlands to sell flowers and other produce. Instead of starting low and going higher, the auction starts with a high price and reduces it. The first dealer to bid gets the lot at the current price. And going Dutch, one in which those invited pay for themselves, appeared in the US only in the late nineteenth century and has a different origin.

But otherwise, you get the idea. Yes, they are pejorative. Using them requires thoughtful consideration of the offence that might possibly be given. However, some are now so embedded in the language that direct associations with the Dutch or the Netherlands have largely been lost — Dutch uncle, for example.

[njtt]

@Greg_Charles

Yes, “in Dutch” means in trouble. I wouldn’t call it especially common … more like something you’d hear in a “Thin Man” novel. I believe it’s of British origin though, and it’s just one of the many slurs involving the French and Dutch, two of Britain’s main rivals.

@Andy_L

I’m not quite clear about the origin of “In Dutch” but yeah, a lot of phrases in English use the word “Dutch” to mean “not quite the real thing”:

For example, a “Dutch Uncle” is not really your uncle, “Dutch love” is lust, “Dutch treat” isn’t a treat at all, etc.

I am British, and I have never heart the phrase"in Dutch" used to mean in trouble. I am aware of some of the other “Dutch” phrases mentioned, such as “Dutch treat” and the related “going Dutch”, but I regard them as Americanisms, not generally used or reliably understood in Britain.

The only “Dutch” expressions that spring to mind as in common use in Britain are “Dutch courage” (false courage from being drunk) and “double-Dutch” meaning nonsensical speech. There is also the very dated expression “my dear old Dutch”, which seems to be an affectionate way of referring to an elderly but beloved wife, and may derive from Cockney rhyming slang for “wife”.

[Tim_R.Mortiss]

Dutch Zombie Alert!!

I’ve heard the phrase, not often, but occasionally, all my life in the midwest.

It is used in “Raising Arizona” where Nic Cage mentions being “in Dutch with the wife” on one occasion. So apparently the Coens knew of it in Minnesota.

[Little_Nemo]

A WAG but maybe it’s a euphemism. It’s like when people say goshdarn instead of goddam or heck instead of hell or friggit instead of fuckit. So you say somebody’s in Dutch instead of saying they’re in deep shit.

[SantaMan]

You gave me flashbacks to the National Lampoon’s Prejudice issue with (parody) racist tracts against the eeeevul Dutch “Threat or menace?”

[Bert_Nobbins]

In Suffolk, England, in the 1950’s, “double dutch” meant not “you’re talking nonsense” but “you are utterly incomprehensible” which is not quite the same thing.

Also “Dutch uncle” specifically meant “adult being insincerely friendly and patronising to a child”. In later life I heard that “Dutch uncle” = “your mother’s lover”.

Since the end of WW2, relations between the Dutch and the British are, I’d say, exceptionally friendly. This is by no means forgotten.

On the other hand, the Dutch still hate the Germans. I was talking to a 40-year old lorry driver about 10 years ago, and he was more than clear on that point.