The "Pit Bull" Myth

Not sure why you keep stressing this point. Personally I disagree with you on some dogs being bred to attack humans. Notably you mentioned GSDs earlier as in this group. GSD are, as the name implies, a herding dog. They were not bred to attack humans. Their size, intelligence and work ethic make them amenable to training so can be brought to do so but it is not in their nature as such and I do not ever remember reading that protecting their flocks involved human aggression in their nature.

Further, dog aggression that you have stipulated earlier a Pit possesses, can indeed be a danger to humans.

You might be interested to hear then that 47 of the 51 dogs seized when they busted Vick have been rehabilitated (from fearful behaviors rather than aggressive ones) and rehomed as family pets, many in homes with small children.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/12/22/vick.dogs/index.html

From the SI article:

I don’t know. The earliest study I could find was the Winkler study, covering 74-75. Winkler was at the Bureau of Epidemiology at the CDC. It appears that he was preparing the report as a legitimate version of the Clifton report–a preliminary media survey that would demonstrate the scope of the problem, and pave the way for more comprehensive surveillance and study of the situation. He notes that he could find eleven deaths by dog attack, that there was no national surveillance of dog bites or dog bite related fatalities, and thus no way to know how many deaths were actually caused by dogs, or what proportion of bites resulted in fatalities. I suppose it’s possible there were twice as many bite-related fatalities and all the unreported cases were pit dogs, but that seems unlikely to be the case. They estimate about a million bites, and report on eleven fatalities, found through police, hospital, and newspaper records. Today we have about 4.7 million bites and average about 16 fatalities. It’s difficult to say whether we have more bites per dog today than before–many dog bites are reported as such that would never have seen a doctor’s care in the 70’s.*

He found reports of dog bite related fatalities involving St. Bernards, shepherds, a husky, a collie mix, a dauchshund, a basenji, a great dane… no pit bull. Plenty of people were fighting pit dogs in the 70’s, and plenty of people kept them as pets… but not people who wanted big, tough-looking dogs.
The interesting thing about the report is the common factors noted–unattended children, dogs on chains. All the victims save one were small children incapable of deflecting an attack.

He notes:

This is the Sacks study that covers the time period between 1979 and 1988. In 1/3 of the fatalities, breed wasn’t reported. Of the times it was, “pit bull breeds” (breeds, plural) were responsible for 20% in 1979 and 80, and 62% in 87-88.

Today, pit bull type dogs are the phenotype of choice for folks that want big, tough-looking dogs. They’re the most common types of dogs neglected, most common to be found as strays. As the Sacks report notes, pit bull bites were twice as likely to be perpetrated by a stray dog. They’re cheap, seen as disposable by the sorts of people who get a dog, chain it in the yard, then don’t pay attention to it for two years. The term “pit bull” has also come to denote our generic mixed-breed shelter dog phenotype: medium sized, short coat, floppy or semi-prick ears, stock build, blunt snout.

What has changed here over the span of time isn’t that more dogs are dangerous, or even that more dogs are more severely dangerous. It’s not even that dog owners have changed much–there’s still a percentage that leave their small children alone with dogs, and still a percentage that keep neglected, chained dogs. What’s changed is pretty much just the general public’s image of a “dangerous dog”, and what the general public identifies as a “pit bull”.

Ah. Well, I can’t argue a ton with this post, as I pretty much agree wholeheartedly with most of it, at least in principle. I don’t think the American public would be thrilled with that kind of control and oversight, but I’d vote for mandatory dog ownership education and testing. I wouldn’t limit it to dogs over 20lbs, though.
By the way–anyone who thinks they have such conclusive stats should submit them to a journal for review, because I’m sure the CDC would like to see them. I remain skeptical of any such definitive claim until I see the data myself.

This though, I don’t agree with. Mostly because as we’ve already discussed, it’s not the breed that’s dangerous, it’s the upbringing. Good dog owners keep perfectly nice Malamutes and perfectly nice pit dogs. I don’t see a reason to eliminate useful and likable dogs from our world because 0.0001% of dog owners (and/or parents) fuck up.

I only keep stressing this point because of the assumption floating around that a “dog fighting” dog is more dangerous than a “boar fighting dog” or a “people fighting dog”.
GSDs were originally a herding dog, and today are sometimes used as herding dogs, but have been bred primarily as personal-protection, police and military dogs for over a hundred years. Von Stephanitz knew at the turn of the century that the GSD’s role as a pastoral shepherd would be limited and began directing breeding for a more versatile working, primarily military-use dog.
They might not have been bred to attack humans 150 years ago, but since the turn of the century and specifically WW1, that most certainly has been a huge part of their development and duty.

ETA: Look, I’m not trying to malign your breed or anything, I’m just trying to get people to understand that there are plenty of other breeding backgrounds out there which carry traits significantly more likely to translate to human-targeted aggression than dog-aggressive traits.

The cite you’re quoting belongs to a shyster dog bite attorney, trolling for plaintiffs, who mostly spends his time quoting the Clifton report. He is not a reputable source for anything.

This:

is a lot of baloney, Whack-a-Mole.

It’s notable that in the linked article about the Liverpool incident, the “ferocious” pit bull was unable to kill the grandmother who was trying to stop it having its wicked way.

If their main danger is to children, there’s a simple lesson to be learned here, isn’t there?

Possibly. Or maybe it didn’t kill the grandmother because it was too busy trying to kill the kid? N=1 here, but the one bad dog fight I’ve seen, the owner was trying to get his dog (pit bull) off another dog (I think a lab). The pit bull would briefly turn on his owner (who ended up with some pretty serious bites on his hands and arms), but then would turn back to the lab.

Although it does sound like the grandmother was also bitten on the ‘leg and body’ - probably as she was struggling to get the dog out of the house. One wonders what would have happened if she had fallen down, for example.

And an update on the Liverpool case:

Christian Foulkes, 21, was detained this morning by detectives from Merseyside Police following the death of the little boy on Monday.

A spokeswoman for the force said: ''A 21-year-old man from the Wavertree area of Liverpool has this morning been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter by detectives investigating the death of four-year-old John Paul Massey.

‘‘He is currently in police custody and will be interviewed later today. No other arrests have been made.’’

The arrest comes after tests showed that the dog, called Uno, was a pitbull, banned under the Dangerous Dogs Act.

<snip>

The case comes less than three years after five-year-old Ellie Lawrenson, also being minded by her grandmother, was savaged to death by her uncle’s pitbull terrier, Reuben, 10 miles away in St Helens, also Merseyside.

The force said that, since that attack on New Year’s Day 2007, they have clamped down on the problem and destroyed 339 dogs of illegal breeds.

Of interest here: The UK has a Dangerous Dogs Act of 1991: While the act applies to all dogs, they specifically mention four types of dogs - and note that the act is careful not to specify breed: The four types are: pit bull terrier, Japanese tosa, dogo argentino, and fila brasilerio. The act also applies to ‘any dog of any type designated for the purposes of this section by an order of the Secretary of State, being a type appearing to him to be bred for fighting or to have the characteristics of a type bred for that purpose’.

The UK law looks like a spectacularly bad piece of legislation, thrown together by some politicians trying to score points in the face of some ugly tabloid articles. They had to revise the Act in 1997 after dogs were being destroyed unnecessarily.

However, the UK isn’t alone in banning or restricting dangerous dogs. Australia has some breed-specific legislation, and so does some Canadian and US munincipal governments.

I found this interesting:

In Cochrane v. Ontario (Attorney General), 2007 CanLII 9231 (ON S.C.), Ms. Catherine Cochrane sued the Province of Ontario to prevent it from enforcing the Dog Owner’s Liability Act (DOLA) ban on pit bull-type dogs, arguing that the law was unconstitutionally broad because the ban was grossly disproportionate to the risk pit bulls pose to public safety, and that the law was unconstitutionally vague because failed to provide an intelligible definition of pit bulls. The presiding judge ruled that the DOLA was not overbroad because,

More info here:

There is no viscera-ripping in professional dog fights. It would be very difficult to train a dog to kill another dog and eat it (the only reason for viscera-ripping is to eat the much desired organs) the way it would a prey animal - these are animals with billions of years of evolution behind them encouraging them to get along and to fight in a certain ritualized way.

The dogs are encouraged to bite, hold, and shake to cause maximum tearing, pain, and blood loss. Most injuries are to the face, ears, neck, and chest (where the protective thick and loose skin is, and where all dogs tend to injure each other when they fight). Usually the losing dog does not die in the fight - it is the one that yields or becomes so exhausted it can’t fight back. Although they are often killed afterward directly by the owner, from blood loss, or from untreated injuries.

This is also of course they way all dogs (not just pit bulls) bite and kill children - overwhelmingly face, head or neck injuries. They aren’t engaging with them the way they would prey animals (wolves and dogs overwhelmingly approach prey from behind and start eating at the haunches and stomach) they are treating them the way they would another dog. Unfortunately our skin, heads and necks are about 50x as fragile as a dog’s. What would be a bruising reprimand on a dog can puncture us and cause quite a bit of bleeding.

Here are the original rules of dog fighting, still used in large part today. Michael Vick fought his dogs by these rules.

Didn’t Tom Hanks say this in “A Pit Of Their Own”?

Nice,** Jackmannii** :smiley:

Thanks for your post, rhubarbarin, it’s exactly right, and illustrates a valuable point: it’s not that the dog is mistaking the child for another dog that it wants to murder, it’s that the dog is communicating with the child using the language that dogs use, when body language and vocalizations have failed. An adult interacting with an aggressive dog is likely to read appropriately threatening body language and respond appropriately. A toddler does not.
Insufficiently trained or unattended dogs schooling a small child for trying to take away their toy or sticking a hand in their food bowl, and taking advantage of an opportunity to rise in the ranks in pack status are a whooooole hell of a lot more common than free-roaming, crack-fed, pit-fighting hellhounds.

DragonAsh: you’re right the DDA was spectacularly bad. It has also done absolutely* nothing* to curb the incidence of severe dog attacks or dog bite related fatalities. Check out the COCC thread for more extensive discussion about countries and states which have enacted, then reversed or are currently reconsidering BSL in the wake of spectacular failure. The AVMA recommends a model comprehensive “Dangerous Dog Legislation” in their report.

Rotweillers. Dobermans. Pit Bulls. German Shephards.

Please people.

These dogs are bread to HURT.

Each other and humans. And other dogs.

And there it is.

If there are no circumstances in their lives which call upon those traits…great.

If there ARE (and THAT IS the BAD stuff) in their “dog” minds - then look out!

Jeez people.

I think it best, in these horrendous circumstances, to kill these dogs.

YMMV

Four dogs of the apocalypse.

We all KNOW.

They are pure canine evil.

I thought this thing had gone belly up…but.

Here’s some gibberish I can’t quite sort out.

By “horrendous circumstances” (does THIS person MEAN) actual “harm caused” - or!

Just fitting some schmuck’s picture of evil “dog” incarnate.

YMMV

It’s more likely, imho, that people just weren’t aware of how much damage pitbulls are capable of inflicting, and how many people/pets are killed or permanently maimed as a consequence of pitbull attacks. Those dogs have a much deeper bite–they actually go right for the musculature of their victim, while most dog bites are much more superficial. This is not to say that other dogs don’t bite or attack when they feel provoked, but most dogs, unlike pitbulls, give a warning growl when about to attack, and most dogs don’t turn on their owners or anybody else just out of the blue, the way pitbulls are prone to doing. There’s a reason why pitbulls are used by drugdealers, gangsters, and other people, who just want to prove how tough and macho they are, and getting a pitbull reinforces that image for them. Their DNA, plus their combative temperaments makes them a prime dog for fighting. That’s why they’re bred for fighting; because they’re physically and emotionally combat/attack-ready. d

Moreover, the whole idea that any dog can attack and tear somebody apart is pure malarkey, as far as i’m concerned. Comparing pitbulls to other dogs is ridiculous. I agree with that. However, I’ve never heard of or read about Beagles or Greyhounds attacking out of the blue, killing or permanently maiming another dog, other animal, or even a human being.

Dude, most of your post is just the same ad-nauseum repeat of the same tired urban legends. Your last paragraph is just an appeal to ignorance with a couple Beagle and Greyhound shaped strawmen for good measure.

Also, I love that your rejection of the relevant studies in time periods prior to the pit bull media frenzy centers on the logic that “the CDC researchers just couldn’t figure it out until the tabloids told us”. :smiley: