Do you have any evidence that there was any threat at all? Any claim even by the police involved that there was such?
Any rationale for how getting the scheduled musical performance (that few stuck around for) stopping immediately would impact that threat, if it had existed?
Facts in evidence, including what actually was said do not support a conclusion that this was an action commanded to serve any threat reduction or reasonable police goal in service of public safety.
FWIW several here, including @puzzlegal and myself, concur.
He was in the context of dealing with the police not the professional of the interaction. His was not the first mistake made and the last mistake made was clear police brutality.
If this officer had behaved professionally the whole incident would have never happened. And the professional has greater responsibility for an event than the upset member of the public does.
Your magic words comment was as far from what she is saying as a reasonable person could imagine. It’s the opposite of what she’s saying.
That [ immanent threat] is a stand on for the actual immanent threat they were aware of. It’s not magic words. If there actually had been an imminent threat, they should have said so clearly. Because it’s hardly unexpected that someone will question the police telling them to move, especially someone in the middle of something engrossing, like conducting band.
If it’s actually urgent to get everyone out ASAP, they need to use all the tools they have to do that efficiently, and one if those is to convey to all those people the need to leave. That’s like, “basics of managing human beings”.
But of course, there wasn’t actually an imminent threat. If there had been, it would have materialized in all that time they wasted fighting a stupid fight.
So in fact, the words they should have used are:
“Please wrap up after this song and get everyone out of here, it’s time to leave.” And if they’d used those magic words (and waited one minute) everything would have run smoothly.
Moderating
Please drop this hijack.
Also, this thread is not in political, it’s in MPSIMS. Everyone (including @Banquet_Bear ) please try not to overly broaden the political aspects. There’s a discussion ongoing in the pit
or you can start a spin-off thread wherever seems appropriate.
No, the mistake the police made was acting as if there was an imminent threat when in fact fhere was not one. Lying about there being one would not help, you are correct about that.
Another side effect of being placed in a position of authority is that you will sometimes run into people who make mistakes when dealing with you. As the professional with authority to use lethal force in that situation, police have a greater responsibility to deescalate than civilians they interact with do. That is why I have 0 interest in what Mr. Mims did or did not do.
The fact is, the police used wildly excessive force instead of taking even basic steps to mitigate the situation.
Because, in their own words, they were fixing to tase someone who didn’t respect them.
That is terrifying.
The fact that some guy didn’t make the best decision? Doesn’t matter. The facts that police officers who patrol our streets carrying guns have that sort of attitude? Terrifying.
Eta: just saw the mod note, I hope nothing I said is out of line with prior discussion or overly political
FWIW, no. This isn’t a circumstance of skilled argument convincing against the facts.
It’s not a contest or a game. It may in the less serious forum but the issue is a significant one and the different reactions significant as well.
We need police.
We need police who know how to do a sometimes very difficult job to high professional standards.
We are trusting these individuals with much power including the ability to command and to have at their disposal lethal force. Some individuals in that position abuse that power. They need to held accountable. To the degree that police culture sets up that abuse it has be remediated.
We need to honor those who do that difficult job well, and even those who just do it well enough. But we cannot make excuse for failures of some or of the culture in some departments.
What are the guidelines for Taser use in that department? Was this an individual officer doing something wrong or do the guidelines allow for that gross abuse of the Taser or does the culture of the department facilitate ignoring the guidelines in place? How are officers trained to deal with public? Again just one incompetent officer or is his initial aggressive combative military style approach to having troops sweep to clear out the facility right now part of the norm for that department?
Mistakes were made by the professionals culminating in police brutality. A professional organization learns from mistakes and improves processes. When that does not occur trust is further eroded.
@DSeid, that is a superb summary of the heart of this event.
Well, I say you are great debaters.
This may be why I flunked outta the debating team in school.
“They can’t all be winners, kid”
this is a quote from a movie, btw
Something I meant to add earlier: He was actually tased 3 times. According to him after he went down they tased him 2 times more.
And there is no easier way to turn a band of high schoolers into becoming an angry mob than to tase their innocent band leader.
The question I have to ask is, even assuming that the band leader was in violation of the law, why they needed to arrest him. Disturbing the peace is a misdemeanor, after he was done playing he was no danger himself or others, he was not in any danger of reoffending, they know who he was and where he worked. Just walk up to him after he quit playing hand him a citation explain the charges against him and his options, and then wish him a good night.
There is no universe where tasing him does anyone any good, least of all the officers and their department. If I were a Police Captain (thank god I’m not) I would instruct my officers to at all times think how will what I’m considering doing look on youtube, and are the consequences of not acting worth the potential negative publicity. Even if he was in the wrong the consequences of letting him finish his damn song and go on his way were minor as compared to the shit storm that followed by arresting him. Some times you just gotta let things go.
But there was an imminent threat. There was the imminent threat that a civilian might not instantly bow down and comply with police orders on demand. Can’t have that, might undermine police power! Tase away.
Exactly. The fact that these uniformed men are walking around with effectively unchecked and uncheckable authority, performing routine tasks outside the mission of law enforcement, makes them, in a very real sense, mobile crime traps. At any moment they might give an order, justified or not, lawful or not, and civilians are expected to instantly drop everything and follow the order, or, apparently, they deserve everything that happens to them afterward, including physical assault and criminal charges. This is utter madness and is not how a modern civilized society is governed.
I too have wondered what in the world the police was doing there? Can’t Americans watch a game without police watching them?
Exactly! Just give him his damn ticket (same as if he were in violation of traffic laws while driving) and let him fight it in court. There was absolutely no need to arrest anyone in this case.
Back in high school my buddies and I were up in the rafters of the auditorium exploring the catwalks. The police showed up and we got down and ran. Unfortunately one of my friends got caught and blabbed who we were. I wasn’t arrested, but did receive a summons to appear in juvenile court some weeks later. Even my friend who was caught was released within a couple of hours after his information was taken. (I never asked if they cuffed him or not.)
Granted this was back in the '80s, before much of the militarisation of the police. And we were all stupid white teens in a good(ish) area. Still, the same principles should always apply: the police are only one part of the legal process. They are to do their job and let the courts do theirs. They are most definitely not meant to be the judge, jury, and executioner over everyone in society.
Whenever there’s a crowd we have to hire them to direct traffic. It’s all about the overtime.
When my synagogue has a big service, we hire private security for security (because antisemitism) but we also need to hire a cop to direct traffic where the driveway meets the road.
Last time i went to a high school football game, there were a couple of cops in the parking lot directing traffic. They weren’t clearing anyone from the stands, though. Somehow, people in my town were believed capable of finding their way out of the stands on their own.
I believe you mean 0.08% blood alcohol, as 0.8% is not compatible with life.
After students were murdered by the police during anti-government protests in Greece, there was established the principle that police are not allowed to set foot on an academic campus. (As a principle, mind you. There were violent demonstrations as recently as last year when cops tried to enter university grounds in Athens and Thessaloniki.) In America, there were similar experiences during the same time period, but apparently the lesson stuck even less than it did in Greece.
That has more to do with academic and political freedom than maintaining order during a game, though. In that case the worst-case scenario would be a panic or riot. (Cf. the violent football riot following the Croatia-Greece game in Athens last month, including at least one death by stabbing.) Not having organized such a sporting event, I am not equipped to say whether private security and ushers are best trained to prevent that or whether it is any kind of good idea to hire local cops (the latter seems like bad optics, then again I do not know how violent hooligans think). Of course there were cops all over the place after street riots broke out; NB that was not in America at all.
Upthread I read that each band would do 3 songs after the game. If each team does one song at a time then the other band didn’t ‘quit’ when they finished their turn, & if it was after their last song, it would be logical for them to start breaking down & putting their instruments away just because their set ended first.
I see. Here the homeguard (hjemmeværnet) direct the traffic at big events, for instance at the Copenhagen Marathon.
I’m sure that the police can do it almost as well, except having a chip on the shoulder and being armed.
This would to some extent fit the Danish police too.
At the Copenhagen synagogue, the police turn out to guard them, after a shooting some years ago where a security guard was killed
FWIW I was able to find this police department scorecard for Alabama’s various departments.
Lower number is considered worse. Birmingham’s is worse than any other Alabama city department on those metrics. Under Huntsville, Montgomery, and Mobile. Accountability is an especially low score. Notably though not bad on the racial disparities score.
I do wonder if some of the issue was based on this from the original article:
He ain’t from round here. Don’t know how things work these parts.