The grave stones mark the final remains of war heroes. These people died defending others. They are not just pieces of rock. It is a morally bankrupt argument to argue otherwise.
You’re trying to compare a specific object connected to specific individuals to a book that did not belong to the rioters, and was not desecrated in front of the rioters. In fact, it wasn’t desecrated at all except by the people for whom it was made available as an act of respect to their religion.
Exactly, to draw parallels too, as I pointed out in the continuation of that sentence, which, again, you seem to have chosen to cut out for unknown reasons but which certainly helps you in making your point look correct.
The point I was attempting to make with my examples was that the underlying principle was the same. Which it is; if actions are predictable, even if they are irrational, acts you yourself take which knowingly provoke those actions bring some responsibility onto yourself.
Yes, it would have. How about the other two parts to the question?
I have yet to say that I want to curb those freedoms. In fact, I quite clearly posted that I was not in favour of such curtailing; It seems somewhat unreasonable to demand that I back up a statement that i’ve repeatedly pointed out now that I hold the *opposite *viewpoint on. I’ll say it again, since it’s apparently necessary; I am not in favour of curbing those freedoms. I’m not. At all. That would be a bad thing to do. I am against the idea. No curbing. A “Aha! You’ve not come up with anything to back up this terrible position!” argument doesn’t really work when i’ve already said I don’t agree with that terrible position, though, of course, it does make your own post look a lot better.
I do congratulate you on your life, but unless it’s the focus of newsworthy stories I don’t think it could be a trigger for anything, unless you literally kicked down the door and crapped on Islam - though I suspect at that point you probably would become quite newsworthy.
No, they were just pieces of rock. Obviously some people felt they were representive of more, but that would be like arguing that the Quran is more than just pieces of paper or that the Eucharist is more than just a cracker.
At least the government was “extremely apologetic” and no dead bodies were pissed on, that I am aware of.
Exactly. And the notion that some people might feel some kind of *personal *connection to such a book - and that it might be associated in the minds of some quite heavily with the basis of their religion and their holiest figures - is ludicrous. I certainly know as someone who has zero connection to the people these stones commemorate beyond nationality that such a paltry connection doesn’t engender any respect from me; so less would some book that I merely use to base the entirety of my life and outlook on. Assuming such a book existed, which of course it could not.
Besides, everyone knows paper beats stone, anyway.
Clearly we disagree that someone is responsible for an action based on the possible actions of another. The responsibility lies with the person committing the crime. You’ve tried to leverage examples of direct confrontation against the actions of people who were not directed upon by others. That is the defining point in registering responsibility. This is the proverbial yelling of “fire” in a theater.
my lifestyle is a punishable crime in a number of Islamic countries. No hypothetical example to make parallels to.
“Possible”, nothing. I’m talking about taken actions. But otherwise, yes.
Alright. Let’s try something indirect, then. When it comes to the events surrounding and the aftermath of 9/11, the hijackers are only responsible for deaths, injuries and other effects in the region of the WTC and Pentagon? For someone living in, let’s say, Alaska or Hawaii, who had no family or friends in the WTC or Pentagon area but nevertheless found themselves affected in some way by the attacks, the hijackers aren’t at all responsible?
You’re correct. That’s bad. Your point?
The headstones are linked to specific people. The Korans in question were not personal property taken and defiled, they were provided to prisoners who defiled them. And yes, they are only books just as a Eucharist is only bread. It is the words on the pages and the religious sacrament that holds meaning. Not the pages or the bread behind them. The headstones represent physical memorials to the individuals. They are not just pieces of rock. More importantly, nobody is rioting over them or randomly killing Muslims over them.
There is something mentally wrong with anybody who defends, justifies or promotes the wanton destruction of life and property over a perceived insult.
Um… what? did the people in Alaska or Hawaii go on a murdering rampage because of 9/11?
The hijackers are responsible for the murder of everyone involved, the destruction of the buildings and the financial fallout that resulted from all the above.
If you’re asking did their actions affect other people then yes, of course it did. The DOW Jones hit 13,000 the other day. What’s your point?
Not to my knowledge. I’m talking about effects in general rather than murdering rampages, hence me asking about effects and not about murdering rampages.
I’m asking if they take any responsibility at all for their actions affecting other people - specifically, people indirectly connected to those events as opposed to directly. If you were a person living right on the other side of the country, who had no direct connections with anyone at the WTC, the Pentagon, or on the planes for that matter, and you were affected in some way by the attacks, the hijackers take absolutely zero responsiblity for that, is that right?
The headstones are not the “personal property” of anyone and they are only “linked” to specific people because people choose to see them as being linked to people.
The same is true of the Quran. To Muslims they are a symbol of the Ummah and destroying them is an insult to the Ummah.
If Qurans are “just books” then they are merely pieces of rock.
What are you talking about?
The headstones are monuments and as such are the property of the country to which they represent. They are obviously linked to specific people because they are monuments to the individual who lies beneath them. Got their name on them and everything. If you want to buy a stone and engrave it with our soldier’s names and destroy it, knock yourself out. Do it in the middle of a Mosque and do a voodoo dance around them. Don’t care. Don’t care. Don’t care.
Qurans are books with no value to them beyond the cost to print them. That the words hold meaning to someone is fine but it’s also irrelevant. Destroying your own copy is an act of destroying your own property. If it’s the word of God then it’s up to God to smite the offender if it’s such a big deal. You are free to insult dead soldiers to your heart’s content but you are not free to wreck their monuments. They are not yours to destroy.
One is a book to be read, the other is a monument to a hero. They are not the same no matter how many times you repeat it. If someone finds relevance to the words in a book it’s still just a book. At the very worst, any perceived insults to the book should result in nothing beyond burning someone else’s book. You want to burn a bible, or a Torah, knock yourself out. You can download them for free, print them out, and use them for toilet paper. We’ll pretend it really offends us so you don’t feel it was a waste of your time.
Again, There is something mentally wrong with anybody who defends, justifies or promotes the wanton destruction of life and property over a perceived insult.
And again, it was the prisoners who defiled the books. Maybe we should tie them to the gates of the base and show videos of them writing in the Qurans. We could kill 2 birds with one stoning.
And those headstones were just pieces of rock with no value to them other than the cost to build them.
You continue to demonstrate your ignorance. Individual Torah scrolls in Judaism are treated with vastly more respect than individual Qurans in Islam and they most certainly aren’t “downloaded” and then “print[ed] out”.
Nobody has done so. All that’s happened is it’s been demonstrated that after squealing about how it was absurd for Muslims be outraged at US soldiers burning Qurans you’ve been outraged at the destruction of some rocks.
What you fail to note is that just as those rocks were symbols of something to some people and the destruction of them is perceived as an insult, to others, those books are an important symbol and destroying them is an insult.
In short, you’re far more like them then you’d like to believe.
Anyway, again what does the below refer to?
After you’re done promoting the destruction of life by people who perceive an insult, will you be checking yourself into a mental health scheme?
I’m not entirely sure there’s much greater a promotion possible than “Oh, you guys want to kill desecrators? By all means! Look, here’s the guys! We’ve tied them up for you! Please, go right ahead.”
The bottom line is that unless you are a complete frakking idiot you know full well that burining Korans in Afghanistan is going to get people killed and seriously undermine the whole mission. Yet they went ahead and did it anyway. Culpable negligence at the very least.
It doesn’t matter if you or I think they are ‘just’ books. They are not ‘just books’ to millions of people. You’re in a country of people who are, by any reasonable definition of the term, gripped by a collective insanity. As sure as night follows day burning a Koran and getting caught will lead to insane violence.
It’s their definition that is operant - not yours or mine.
It’s always best not to provoke crazy people and if you do then it’s your own bloody fault.
Myself - I’d just leave them to it and just bomb the shit out of anything they do we don’t like. It’s a savage, backward, corrupt cess-pit of a country and there’s nothing we can do about it.
Nope, the headstones are monuments. Qurans that don’t belong to you are the property of whoever owns them.
Individual or Historic Torahs,Bibles, and Qurans represent significant effort to create. They have value beyond the words inscribed. This is different than a Torah that can be downloaded off the internet. You can download all the major religious books for free. There is no monetary value attached to them nor do they represent the conveyance of individuality that a memorial represents. Beyond that, they exist at the discretion of the owner. Beyond that there is nothing so valuable that their physical existence trumps human life. Qurans are no more sacred than any other book. It does not entitle anyone to go on a rampage. It does not place believers above other people or religions.
That’s just a bold face lie on your part. The riots and murders speak for themselves. This is in stark contrast to the destruction of the monuments. Nobody is outraged over them beyond a common sense objection. There are no riots. There are no murders. No suicide bombers. Nothing of the kind has been exhibited. The rioters could have burned a stack of Bibles to their hearts content but no, 39 people dead so far.
What you’ve failed to note is that nobody went on a rampage over the destruction of the monuments. It speaks volumes about the situation. If these books are an important symbol then what is it a symbol of given the behavior it generates.
Do not accuse others of lying in Great Debates.
[ /Moderating ]
Well lets see, he denied that anybody defended, justified or promoted the wanton destruction of life and property over a perceived insult. So I would like to apologize and amend what I said to a boldface disregard for the riots, murders, and suicide bombings associated with the Quran burning incident as it pertains to this discussion.
I thought it was rather obvious that I meant no one on this thread had argued that because you seem to be implying that you interpreted my statement as saying that no one in the world had “defended, justified or promoted the wanton destruction of life and property over a perceived insult.” I certainly didn’t think that any reasonable person would interpret my statement as a denial that anyone anywhere on Earth “defended, justified or promoted wanton destruction of life and property over a perceived insult.”
In fact, you yourself seemed very strongly do just that when you posted with seeming relish about having the prisoners tortured and murdered.
What suicide bombings have been associated with the Quran burning incident?