The Pope says I'm a Nazi - or Godwin in one step

[Galanthus]

@Mr.Moto

I think what he said was perfectly defensible.

He spoke of radically atheist regimes, and the danger of removing religion from public life. Are most atheists radical? Not in the West. Do most atheists advocate for the removal of religion from public life? Don’t think so.

He warned against aggressive forms of secularism. That seems kind of in his job description to me.

The overreaction of entities like the British Humanists amazes me, though it probably shouldn’t. Perhaps they should just let the Pope be Catholic.

There was no point in him saying these things if he didn’t think they applied to us.

Besides which, a few days ago Cardinal Walter Kasper, another ancient German reactionary shit, described the UK as being like a third world country overun with aggressive secularism.

The really ironic thing about this is that the one group that have really benefited from secularism are the Catholics. Eighty years ago Scottish Protestants used to sing songs about wading to the knee in Fenian blood. Mines and Factories used to have signs over them saying no Catholic need apply. Now no one gives a shit whose a Catholic and whose an Anglican, that’s the benefit of a secular society.

[Munch]

@Mr.Excellent

What did the antipope ever do to you? Could be a perfectly decent fellow, the sort you wouldn’t mind grabbing a beer with. Seems rather harsh to off him for sweet, sweet electricity.

If you ever want to guarantee to not have a beer with a Nazi, all you gotta do is hang out with the antipope. That guy’s alright.

[Mr.Moto]

Right. Let’s go to the tape.

…Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live.

I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.

As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a ‘reductive vision of the person and his destiny’ (Caritas in Veritate, 29).

Sixty-five years ago, Britain played an essential role in forging the post-war international consensus, which favoured the establishment of the United Nations and ushered in a hitherto unknown period of peace and prosperity in Europe.

In more recent years, the international community has followed closely events in Northern Ireland which have led to the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, and the devolution of powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Your Majesty´s government and the government of Ireland, together with the political, religious and civil leaders of Northern Ireland, have helped give birth to a peaceful resolution of the conflict there.

I encourage everyone involved to continue to walk courageously together on the path marked out for them towards a just and lasting peace.

Looking abroad, the United Kingdom remains a key figure politically and economically on the international stage.

Your government and people are the shapers of ideas that still have an impact far beyond the British Isles.

This places upon them a particular duty to act wisely for the common good.

Similarly, because their opinions reach such a wide audience, the British media have a graver responsibility than most and a greater opportunity to promote the peace of nations, the integral development of peoples and the spread of authentic human rights.

May all Britons continue to live by the values of honesty, respect and fair-mindedness that have won them the esteem and admiration of many.

Today, the United Kingdom strives to be a modern and multicultural society.

In this challenging enterprise, may it always maintain its respect for those traditional values and cultural expressions that more aggressive forms of secularism no longer value or even tolerate.

Let it not obscure the Christian foundation that underpins its freedoms; and may that patrimony, which has always served the nation well, constantly inform the example your government and people set before the two billion members of the Commonwealth and the great family of English-speaking nations throughout the world.

May God bless Your Majesty and all the people of your realm. Thank you."

Now, we see here that some paragraphs separate the passage about WWII (which was complimentary toward Britain) and the later passage about secularism. Now, it seems to me to be a challenge to Britain to live up to its ideals previously well expressed.

[Merijeek]

@Mr.Moto

Now, we see here that some paragraphs separate the passage about WWII (which was complimentary toward Britain) and the later passage about secularism. Now, it seems to me to be a challenge to Britain to live up to its ideals previously well expressed.

Yeah, it’s either that, or “don’t let them secularists interfere with our collection plate”.

-Joe

[Shot_From_Guns]

@Mr.Moto

Now, we see here that some paragraphs separate the passage about WWII (which was complimentary toward Britain) and the later passage about secularism. Now, it seems to me to be a challenge to Britain to live up to its ideals previously well expressed.

Apparently you missed this part:

As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how **the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a ‘reductive vision of the person and his destiny’ **(Caritas in Veritate, 29).

I bolded the important bit. He’s saying that *all *atheists must eventually come to the conclusion that people have no value and therefore become monsters.

[Galanthus]

Excellent selective quoting - you missed out this bit :rolleyes:

I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.
As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny” [Caritas in Veritate, 29].

[Shot_From_Guns]

Yeah, what’s your point? That line is terrible, too–the Nazis executed Christians who stood up to them, and they also executed atheists who stood up to them. They also loved the Christians who supported them. Nothing changes the fact that he says that atheism, by its very nature, leads to atrocities.

[Bosstone]

The day a head of state openly snubs the Pope will be a happy day indeed.

[Galanthus]

@Shot_From_Guns

Yeah, what’s your point? That line is terrible, too–the Nazis executed Christians who stood up to them, and they also executed atheists who stood up to them. They also loved the Christians who supported them. Nothing changes the fact that he says that atheism, by its very nature, leads to atrocities.

My point was the same as yours - and it was aimed at Mr. Moto.

He selectively quoted the white robed bigot and missed out the bigoted bit.

[Captain_Lance_Murdoch]

Gott mit uns!

[Baron_Greenback]

Benedict got around one-fifth of the crowd that John Paul II did, in the same venue at Bellahouston Park. That’s the only two Popes to have ever visited Glasgow, about 30 years apart. JPII was obviously a much more charismatic and important figure, but that’s a hell of a drop off.

[Mighty_Girl]

So, are we atheist supposed to be rounding up Jews now? Let me know, I have a list.

And I got dibs on Jake Gyllenhaal!

[Czarcasm]

@Captain_Lance_Murdoch

Gott mit uns!

How sweet. Perhaps you’ll get the matching scarf for Christmas.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@Galanthus

My point was the same as yours - and it was aimed at Mr. Moto.

There you go, then. Might want to indicate who you’re replying to, *especially *since his giant quote *did *include that bit–it was where I pulled it from, in fact.

@Czarcasm

Perhaps you’ll get the matching scarf for Christmas.

I almost spat all over my keyboard. Stop that. … Or do more of it.

[Revenant_Threshold]

Honestly, the message of that part seems to be “Remember the Nazis? They were bastards of the highest order, and you stood among others against them. With that example of a secular regime in mind, bear in mind that a lack of religion leads, inevitably, to a reduction in the concept of a person’s inherent worth”.

He isn’t saying that atheists, or secularism in general, in the UK today, are comparable to the Nazis. He’s saying that without religion, however, things like the Nazis may well take power, because secularism inevitably leads to devalued human lives. And that, later on, Christianity is a necessary and foundational requirement for the freedoms we enjoy; hence, without Christianity, we would not have those freedoms.

While I certainly disagree with the Pope on those points, I cannot find much fault with them other than that. On the other hand, I certainly do not agree that the British Humanist Association has overreacted, and in particular the notion that we should let the Pope be Pope but British Humanists not British Humanists seems a bit hypocritical. That all in mind, he is the Pope. Of course he believes we are inevitably lost without religion. That’s the whole point of his job.

[Lobot]

Resolved: Ratzinger is a radicalised member of the New Atheist movement who is destroying Catholicism from inside.

Discuss.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@Revenant_Threshold

He’s saying that without religion, however, things like the Nazis may well take power, because secularism inevitably leads to devalued human lives. And that, later on, Christianity is a necessary and foundational requirement for the freedoms we enjoy; hence, without Christianity, we would not have those freedoms.

He’s not saying that atheism *may *lead to Nazis; he’s saying that atheism *will *lead to Nazis.

While I certainly disagree with the Pope on those points, I cannot find much fault with them other than that.

“Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?” :rolleyes:

ETA:

@Lobot

Resolved: Ratzinger is a radicalised member of the New Atheist movement who is destroying Catholicism from inside.

Impossible. Anybody who hasn’t left the RCC in disgust by now is never going to. Their faith is too strong.

[Lobot]

@Revenant_Threshold

He isn’t saying that atheists, or secularism in general, in the UK today, are comparable to the Nazis. He’s saying that without religion, however, things like the Nazis may well take power, because secularism inevitably leads to devalued human lives. And that, later on, Christianity is a necessary and foundational requirement for the freedoms we enjoy; hence, without Christianity, we would not have those freedoms.

Exactly. And I think such implications are repugnant. It’s a “slippery slope” argument that only serves to demonise atheists and create a greater divide between believers and non-believers.

[Bosstone]

Seriously. Claiming that secularism leads to devaluing human life is offensive in itself, forget about Nazis.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Shot_From_Guns

@Revenant_Threshold

He’s saying that without religion, however, things like the Nazis may well take power, because secularism inevitably leads to devalued human lives. And that, later on, Christianity is a necessary and foundational requirement for the freedoms we enjoy; hence, without Christianity, we would not have those freedoms.

He’s not saying that atheism *may *lead to Nazis; he’s saying that atheism *will *lead to Nazis.

I’m not so sure. Call it weasel words, especially given his linking to Nazis just above and specifically calling attention to it, but he only says secularity will lead to a reduction in the worth of human life. Not that that necessarily will be the same as it was in that particular case.

IOW: “Here’s a case where secularism caused horrible things to occur. Secularism will inevitably lead to horrible things occurring, keep the example in mind, folks”. It’s not outright stating it.