Call me crazy but when there’s an organization with millions of members that funds and supports organizations that want to restrict and control me, despite not being a part of them, I like to know what they’re up to.
I think a deal could be reached: Those of us who are not Catholic will stop paying attention and those of us who are Catholic will stop trying to affect the world we live in.
BTW, Tom, do you know what website would have given me access to 2000 years of published works by the RCC (many in Latin and Greek) for my after-school research, when I was in high school in the 60s?
I plead ignorance and laziness, I guess. or maybe I just felt I got enough “Papal Bull” in class!
After all, by the time I was in high school my common sense and reason were beginning to suggest that it was all nonsense anyway, so finding out that one after-death destination, Limbo, was not as firmly on the map as say, Purgatory, would have seemed like a bit of a waste of time when my friends were inviting me out after school. What a lazy little monster I was not to have spent my free time pouring over 2000 years of church pronouncements!
To steal a quote from Mark Twain: It’s not the parts of Catholicism I don’t understand that bother me, it’s the parts I do.
And that means no more praying, mackerel-snappers! You don’t go over our heads to the boss, that’s just weak! :mad:
I don’t think that Valteron was the only one who got the message that Limbo was doctrine. Here’s George Carlin on the subject, starting at about the 4:10 mark.
I don’t get it. Isn’t this a step in the right direction? Or is anything short of having a gay pride parade in the vatican just a pretense?
If the pope wants to focus on feeding the poor rather than bashing gays, that seems like a good thing.
I will not tolerate disparaging expressions like “mackerel-snappers”. My position as well as that of previous atheists is that Catholic belief alone is NOT a sin. Who am I to judge? Catholics should be integrated in our society (although prudent persons might wish to keep priests away from jobs involving children).
It is the PRACTICE of Catholicism that constitutes a “grave moral disorder” and an “intrinsic moral evil” and can never be condoned. Just the belief is not a sin.
See how liberal I am towards Catholics? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
The Catholic Church used to say that it was not a sin to BE gay, but that anything gays did sexually was a “grave moral disorder” and “an intrinsic moral evil.”
Now the position is that it is not a sin to BE gay, but that anything gays do sexually is a “grave moral disorder” and “an intrinsic moral evil.”
It is hard to say that this is a step in the right direction when it is so hard to tell if his foot moved at all.
Valteron you seem angry. So go take a nice vacation* and relax.
*I hear the Banff Springs Hotel in the Canadian Rockies is nice.
I thought insults were the last weapon of the man who has no valid arguments, but I guess one shouldnm’t underestimate condescension. I am not one bit sorry for the position I took about religious books in my hotel room. Ever since then I make a point of asking that religious books be taken out of my room before I get there. Maybe someday hotels will supply Bibles, Korans and Books of Mormon to those who ask for them, instead of just assuming that I want a book that, like the Bible, says to kill gays or, like the Koran, to beat your wife…
Maybe if you had been gay-bashed a couple of times in your life you would take a less smug attitude.
And if I can’t be angry in the BBQ Pit, where the fuck can I?
Of course his foot has not moved at all. From his POV he’s clarifying things to a lot of people who have gone along convinced that they actually teach it’s a sin to BE gay.
Right – Firstly, their priority, at the time, was to make sure you became a good obedient little Catholic, just like they were, no need to delve into theological sophistication, the way to salvation is to submit and obey and not challenge or question, if we let the little heathens see any grey areas, next thing you know they’ll be nailing theses to the church door. No use denying that this was the view of a lot of teachers of the faith for a long time and that the hierarchy did little or nothing to disabuse them of the notion because they themselves liked the idea of an obedient and unquestioning flock.
Secondly, add to that how in the “old” RCC, there used to be a lot of priests, brothers and sisters who, in hindsight, should not have been in those posts, but due to whatever social or economic or cultural circumstance at the time wound up in the priesthood or as brothers or sisters of the teaching orders, but just barely trained for it, and took their issues out on their wards. You and many, many others were on the receiving end of this failure of the Church. OTOH at the same time others among us were more fortunate in that we had access to teachers of the faith who had a real calling for it and were not afraid of an intellectually curious generation.
It’s a step in the right direction that he said it. The church is down on all sorts of sins like murder and sex before marriage and divorce etc. Everybody blows that all off because the church doesn’t really rant and rave about it much. It is displeased with abortion. Clinics get bombed.
So, saying “who am I to judge?” is basically saying back off the gay attacks. It’s not one of those issues we actually care that much about.
WOW!!! Why didn’t someone tell me? The Pope is against gay-bashing!!!
EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT! POPE DOES NOT APPROVE OF THE CRIME OF ASSAULT AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE ON THE STREET!
And you wanna tell me that man did not make a revolutionary statement! :eek:
Limbo stopped being taught, AFAIK, after Vatican II. You said you went to school in the 50s/60s Valteron, correct? I went to Catholic school as well, but in the 80s/early 90s, and never even heard about it. In fact, my mother told me SHE was taught that, but they never said a word about it at school, or church, or whatever.
They talked a little bit about Purgatory, but not even all that much.
You want he should be vague?
You sure of that? Becuase the fact is, in Europe churches are half empty and Catholicism losing its hold over the masses more and more. For instance, remember that old bastion of Catholicisn, Spain? well, Number of atheists, non-believers increases in Spain. And that is only a reflection of what if happening all over the continent.
Think it was a mere “vote” that the first Latin Pope was chosen? I’d say, no, , it had to happen as Latin America and parts of Africa remain the only Catholic dominated regions in the world…and even there, it’s fading.
More samples:
That just a very quick overview as I am short on time – but I am pretty sure they are aware they are in trouble and need reforms yesterday if they are to keep (some) of their power with their faithful
More proof, marshmallow, if any was needed.
Thanks, MG. Best always.
Interesting how the complaints and the percentage who say they need to have some changes are pretty similar to the types of complaints and percentage in the US talking about Republicans.* I don’t think it’s a coincidence, either. The world is becoming more interconnected and, well, worldly.
*Some saying be more conservative, some less, etc. I’m not saying the specific goals are the same, just that there is this tug of war going on where a large organization faces some tough decisions if it wants to maintain the most relevance.