The point was simply that the Democrats had no part in how the DOGE mess has negatively impacted Trump.
Trump is of course a net negative to the country. A huge negative.
Trump is doing heavy damage all over the damn place, but there is a chance he might stumble a bit and stub his toe if we leave him alone? Excuse me if celebrating doesn’t ensue.
That only matters if they subject themselves to real elections. If they control the outcomes of elections, public disapproval is a moot point.
I disagree. I feel we’re probably already at least three quarters of the way there.
The OP was not about saying it was a good situation but about making the most of a bad situation.
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That only matters if they subject themselves to real elections. If they control the outcomes of elections, public disapproval is a moot point.
Of the way toward not having free and fair elections? So when do you think we will not have them, and where?
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Sure, but the hope of his implosion must be that it limits the destruction, but so far, there has already been a staggering amount of damage—to the economy, science, international relations, wellfare, healthcare, and on and on—that will take years to reverse, even if the eventual downfall isn’t of the form that causes even more collateral fallout.
To sum it all up: We cannot afford this “win”.
I don’t disagree with the last two posts above, but the fundamental issue, the thing that made Trump possible (as well as right-wing insurgencies around the world) is the ongoing degradation of late stage capitalism. The system isn’t going to last much longer but, like a dying body, its subsystems hold on as long as they can, and it’s not clear which part will fail first and cause the death of the whole.
Would it have been better for Harris to win? Of course! But let’s not kid ourselves that she had any vision of how to transition from our dying system to something better–nor do the Democrats in the aggregate. Democrats are just trying to patch up a fatally broken system–tax credit this, incentive that–as humanely as possible without really fixing it. The problem is that no one knows how.
In contrast, the right wing offers a false solution that appeals to the mean-dumb people as I call them (i.e., the Deplorables; but I prefer “mean-dumb people” as it clarifies what’s wrong with them as opposed to stating how one ought to feel about them). Just as Hitler did in the 1930s.
I’m not telling you anything you don’t know. I’m just clarifying my position: Democrats are much, much better than the RWNJs, but our side still is not on track to fix this shit, i.e., “win.”
I also hear the we are in the End Times and we should be preparing for the return of Christ.
Hilarious! I suppose you are indicating disagreement? Our current economic system is viable over the long term? Feel free to actually comment.
Actually, I’d like to start with questions;
What is late stage capitalism?
How did you determine we are in it?
and
How long will late stage capitalism last?
NO ANSWERS WILL BE ACCEPTED UNLESS THE WORK TO DERIVE THE ANSWERS IS SHOWN
Lol, well, maybe that’s a topic for a different thread. I think the fact that a lot of Trump voters here (and people around the world) are pretty pissed about their economic prospects (and other changes, such as demographic changes/immigration, which triggers their mean-dumb racism). That was the point I wanted to make here.
Yes, and historically would that be a common or an uncommon feeling people have about their economic prospects?
If you are suggesting that things now are no different than they were in the past, then I would disagree.
Hmm. So on the one hand, we can blame the Republican Magas for a generation. So like 20yrs? Meanwhile the damage done to American democracy might not be salvagable at all, or take 2 to 3 generations to fix - unless we get an outright revolution.
It’s true that I have heard some grumblings from my right-leaning friends. It’s true that Trump is a clumsy oaf stepping on his own toes. However, the efforts to undermine any checks and balances had been staggeringly successful, and the efforts to eliminate fairness from elections had been unabated.
So abandoning Ukraine was good for Ukraine. Playing into Putin’s hand was good for Ukraine. Now he’s mouthing more support given than Putin is making him look like a clown.
I might find some agreement on Iran, except for the disastrous path that led us there.
And the flipside is Trump destroying our global alliances in ways that won’t be salvagable just by a big Dem win the next time around.
Laffable. He has already turned ICE into a masked thug squad violating the Constitution willy nilly. He’s got the Military jumping to his beat, getting rid of the career military that would oppose overreach. He’s removing any governmental oversight groups and got the Supreme Court backing him on decisions that remove that ability to legally go after him. So much that everyone said “Oh they would never decide that way and give up their own power,” and then they decided just that.
I have yet to see any tells that Trump’s health is so far gone a Vance step in will be required.
Oh I agree we could have had a competently evil president elected. But it’s not as bad as it could have been is not really that comforting. Because Trump just has to do enough for the competent evil to get in a toehold.
Frankly, Capitalism looks more long term viable than democracy. Certainly the tech bros like Thiel hope so.
I think our Constitution might be due for an update. It’s a pity if we can’t make the necessary changes from within, and the change this time is not likely to be as peaceful as replacing the Articles of Confederation, but at least we have a precedent for how to go about it.
My comments:
The damage already done to the US is largely beyond repair, even if Trump dropped dead and the Republicans lost power to the Democrat tomorrow. and it’s only getting worse. American will never, ever be what it was, and even approaching out pre-Trump state would take decades if it can even be done at all. We’ll all be dead before then at any rate, by old age if nothing else.
The wealthy elite may think they can just discard MAGA, but they have the power relationship reversed; they can be swatted aside by any government that cares to do so, and the government is now MAGA. Ask all the Russian oligarchs who “fell out of windows” how well money stacks up against thuggery; hard power always beats soft in a direct confrontation.
Our economic system may not be viable for the long term, but a system based on neo-feudalism, tributes by conquests and mass slavery - which is the direction we are headed - is not an improvement. Nor is the more distant prospect of an economy based on automation, with most of the population exterminated.
There’s no such thing as “late stage capitalism”, that’s based on the Marxist fantasy of some sort of inevitable linear progress of human society. Capitalism doesn’t have stages, and it can shift back and forth all sorts of ways.
A civil war to remove MAGA won’t work, if they have to they’ll nuke the entire country rather than surrender power. And probably nuke other countries on general principle; better that the world burn than they don’t get to own it, and their retaliation will help ensure no American survivors. And by the time such a thing happens they’ll have long since filled our military command up with fellow fanatics who would use nuclear weapons on American soil not only willingly, but with great pleasure.
Yeah, the GOP will struggle to rebrand after Trump is gone either politically or physically (I would say sooner rather than later on either), and most to all of the national pols supported or enabled the man. The MAGA spell is nearly broken right now, even as Trump should be riding and polling high; think of what the hangover will be like.
I don’t think it’s a quantitative problem (time) but a qualitative one, as Trump has shown how a person without principles can hack the government. We do need either a sober reassessment of the constitution or a revolution at this point in order to fix things.
It’s a topic certainly worthy of another thread: “How much damage has Trump done, and how much time and effort will it take to fix it?” I don’t really buy the “this will take generations to fix” take on things. Japan and Germany were literally blown to fuck after WWII, and they were doing pretty well politically and economically within 10 years thereafter (Japan and West Germany, that is). Trump has made the US look like one giant idiot, but many countries have done poorly in this regard recently, and I would say the UK has done much worse with Brexit and general political malaise.
Keep in mind that the OP was written before Trump even started his term, and I have a whole other thread (also written before his term started) in which I gamed out pretty much every possible scenario that could occur under his regime. I think Trump has been both worse and better (in terms of outcomes) than I had thought. He’s been worse in that he’s flailed mightily in every direction and done damage in many areas, but he’s been better in that he has been unsuccessful in accomplishing any one big thing. Further he’s made himself and, by extension, the GOP look like idiots in every way possible. And now he’s literally coming apart at the seams, mentally and physically. I think that Trump has done a lot of damage, but it’s been damage done to norms.
I have argued and will continue to argue that Dubya has been monumentally more damaging to the US than Trump. The timeline in which Al Gore wins (or rather, is allowed to win) gives us a completely different world, even if 9/11 happens (which it may well have not, which would give us a very completely different world).
Trump hasn’t given us the equivalent of Dubya’s wars, which caused damage that has lasted a generation and killed a large number of people to boot. Trump hasn’t done the equivalent of Brexit, a tremendous fuckup will be very hard to undo.
I would say that the Supreme Joke has done much more damage than Trump, even before Trump appointed new clowns to it. We need several constitutional amendments just to unfuck their idiocy (and prevent them from doing more damage in the future).
As for how much Trump has been able to walk us toward a Hitlerian authoritarian state, I would prefer to argue that in the thread on that topic.
Then I would say, with all due respect, that you haven’t been paying close attention. Any other president would have been 25thed by now. His cognitive decline is advancing at a rapid pace. His massively swollen ankles alone are a good reason to expect a Vance presidency. If he makes it to 2029, it will involve more propping up by those around him than is likely to be possible.
I think that Trump is discrediting all the right people. People are now politically aware in a way that they were not in 2016. We now talk about “billionaire oligarchs” and look with suspicion on the tech bros. We now understand that, yes, a huge swathe of the American public is mean-spirited morons that have to be managed. And instead of competent evil that could make the GOP look “good” in some sense, Trump has made them all look like feckless, sycophantic weaklings incapable of doing anything without their strongman. Trump has even done us the favor of demoralizing and pissing off a significant percentage of his base.
Victory is far from assured, but there is nothing to obfuscate the battlefield at this point, and we have Trump to thank for that.
Democracy has been sorely tested not only in the US but around the world. The key issue is this: the internet now lets all the bad and moronic people form a unified front against the rest, and how do we deal with that?
I don’t think people have yet understood, much less accepted, the amount of change that’s required. What we need is as big a leap as that from the Roman Empire to a 20th century democracy and economy, but with the former’s level of understanding of the latter.
He’s driven out competent, principled people from the government, dismantled large parts of it and filled what’s left with MAGA types. It’ll take decades at the least to fix most of that, as far as it can be fixed at all. It took decades to build in the first place, after all. And large portions of the government will now need to die of old age so they can be replaced, since the Democrats would rather die than do a similar purge.
Again, I think it’s qualitative. Growing up in the 1970s, I saw the US still processing Nazism–as we are now, but the rear view was less rear, and we had naivete on our side to help us out. “Yeah, those Germans were crazy–how could they do that?” Well, now we’ve seen our own mean-dumb people get into the same mindset, stoked by a demagogue that could only ever appeal to the evil and moronic. Our faith in our own goodness, despite our past mistakes, is destroyed. In that sense, yes, American will never be what it was. It’s like finding who you thought was a loyal partner in bed with another. You may be able to work things out, but a permanent before/after line is drawn.
I don’t think MAGA has any long-term future as a brand or faction in the GOP. MAGA simply equals Trump and his cult. The real issue is that the GOP has given up on being a principled political party that seeks to uphold the rule of law, etc. It is now nothing more than an organism dedicated to its own survival at any cost, but propped up in part by the inertia of those too stupid to understand what it’s become (e.g., old people voting “R” because they think they’re still voting for Reagan or his equivalent). How this will play out over the long term is unclear.