Magic represents engaging in certain practices with an assured result.
Prayer is a dialogue with a Saint or God, asking for help.
They may or may not respond.
Actually, the best prayer I have ever made, is a prayer of thanksgiving, thanking God for my life and all that is in it.
It is a prayer of thanks!
Czarcasm, I would not call it incredible that Grimpixie got a job – including a job for which he was not at the time qualified. I don’t know what planet you’re operating on, but around here, people are hired for jobs on a regular basis, and far too often for jobs they aren’t qualified for! :eek:
Seriously, I suspect that you are challenging that this was in answer to his prayer, and I will grant that it sounds like a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. But, while, on the assumption that there is no god, it is clearly coincidental, on the assumption that there is a god who said that he would answer prayers asked “in Christ’s name” (discussion of that later or, preferably, at another time and place), then Grimpixie’s evident conclusion that this was an answer to his prayer makes perfect sense.
I concede that in your worldview there is no such god – but in his there is. Within the contexts in which each of you view the situation, your analyses are both logical inferences. Do you see this?
My objection was to the claims Lissla Lissar made, which grimpixie then refered to in criticising my position. As far as grimpixie’s claims go, I have no doubt that they happened, but events like those described by him happen to everyone, whether they pray or not. I think that it would be a miracle if only bad things happened to him.
Cszarcasm
masonite
Anaphylactic Shock: A rare, revere, and life-threatening allergic reaction. It is a Type I hypersensitivity reaction that occurs in people in whom an extreme sensitivity to a particular substance (allergen) has developed.The reaction occurs most commonly after an insect sting or as a reaction to to an injected drug.
The Canadian Medical Association Home Medical Encyclopaedia, 1992
Anaphylaxis, he said, occurred within seconds or minutes of a sting. Common initial symptoms are chest wheeze, nausea, vomiting, and confusion followed by falling blood pressure leading to death.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AA159
Okay, there’s your cite regarding anaphylaxis. Upon reading the OP, I assumed that personal stories were what was wanted. Now that this thread has been moved to Great Debates, I assume that everyone’s stories will have to be substantiated. As to why I (or any of the Teeming Millions) should believe her story, I can offer no proof. I trust the woman’s testimony because I trust her: she’s a friend of mine, she had no reason to lie to any of us in the group, and to the best of my knowledge she doesn’t go around making up crackpot stories. Why should any of you believe it? I didn’t even suggest that you had to, you are free to continue believing whatever you wish about my gullibility and my ignorance. That’s okay.
Nope. I trust her. Oh, and how does “what I wanted to hear” play into this? I don’t go around seeking miracles, really. You are presupposing in me a desire for physical confirmation of my faith. I really don’t need it, and don’t go looking for it. I simply responded to the OP with one of the few stories I know.
I wasn’t questioning Anaphylactic Shock, I was questioning the somewhat unusual “third time you die” variation of it. I can’t think of any doctor that would be so irresponsible as to tell that to a patient.
And no, I was not presupposing in you a desire for physical confirmation of your faith. I was criticising your blind faith in “miraculous” stories that you justify with the statement “…she had no reason to lie to any of us in the group”.
I am alergic to bee stings. As far as I know, there is no “third time and you die” reaction. I went into anaphylactic shock twice before receiving a series of injections to build up my resistence to bee stings. Yes, there is a course of shots you are supposed to take but any exposure to the shots (basically just increasing doses of bee venom) help build up your resistance.
I had to monkey with the speed of the shots because my family was moving but it definately increased my resistence to the point that I don’t really worry about bee stings anymore. I still carry an Epi-Pen just in case, mainly because I spend a lot of time backcountry camping.
My read is that someone who has started a course of treatment for bee sting allergy and taken enough to “give her three more chances” has under gone a significant course of treatment. BTW, that seems very unlikely that doctor would tell her something like that, it doesn’t make sense. Since I responded very well to the shots, I assume she did as well.
The way she described the reactions and treatments to you makes me believe she didn’t really have a good understanding of her health situation.
I’m of the opinion that thought has power over reality. What others attribute to a god may be our own perception shaping reality. Could be wrong here. I don’t have much proof other than things like the placebo effect and incredible occurences of healing (some of which are non-religious in nature - leading me to believe religion (a god) is not responsible. If anyone is interested I can dig up some cites. The well known placebo effect does prove perception can effect reality.
DaLovin’ Dj
Answered prayers…answered prayers…I don’t know…
It’s hard, because sometimes, I’ve prayed so hard, yet it happens anyways. Or sometimes my prayers have been answered. How am I to know?
I only know that perhaps, since we do not KNOW one way or another, to state that those who believe in prayer are silly, or brainwashed is rather a kneejerk.
If you guys remember, back in October, we had to put our kitten, Tess to sleep. What am I saying-of COURSE you’re going to remember-I was ranting incoherantly, and I was cursing God and anyone who would listen. And then we got into a huge fight.
But see, it was my mistake to blame God for what happened to Tess.
See, sometimes all you can do is pray. And sometimes it may not be answered. But to those of us who do believe, it’s something perhaps that keeps us from going insane out of our own sense of helplessness. And perhaps, it brings us comfort.
I’m just saying, if we don’t have proof one way or another, it’s not good to dismiss it.
Czarcasm - I meant no criticism of your comments, but was simply trying to point out that your world view must colour your opinions. A sceptical world view will produce a sceptical response to a story of faith, while a “faith” world view may more easily accept it because it fits with what is known.
Nevertheless, you make a good point - should I accept, unquestioningly all stories of faith? My answer is no, because I believe that the person/belief/system upon whom the faith is based makes a great deal of difference in whether or not I should accept it. I know the God that Lissla’s friend has her faith in, and I have seen/heard first hand, similar stories of similar healings and of similar afflictions (I read the three times and you’re dead line as a little exageration for effect) - I have two friends with life-threatening allergies, one to pork and the other to bannanas!! That makes it a great deal easier to accept that Lissla’s friend was telling the truth. I have no experience of TM, Uri Gellar or John Edwards and therefore have no reason for belief (or disbelief for that matter). Were I Lissla, I would be noting whether the person telling the story is honest and truthfull about other things or not. If so, then it lends weight to the factual nature of her story, if not, it undermines it.
Polycarp, as usual puts it far more eloquently than I might have…
Gp
Why would a spiritual entity answer some prayers and not others? What would put you to the top of the list over… say…world peace? Or saving starving children somewhere? Do you ever question your god’s priorities?
With all the activities your god has going for people after death, where does he find time to sort through the requests and decide who will be the lucky winner of a granted prayer?
Good questions, EchoKitty. And Luck has nothing to do with it.
But the Christian God doesn’t say that he’ll always grant the request in any prayer. He says, “Ask *in My [Jesus’s] Name, and it will be given you.”
The general idea here is that God has a Plan, and it’s worked out in great complexity for the long-range good of every single one of us (bearing in mind that we are not limited to our lifespan here on Earth). The prayers that are granted are the ones asked “in Jesus’s Name” – not meaning that you tack on that formula, but that you’re asking in the mind and spirit of Jesus, subverting your own selfish desires to His will. And those are the prayers that are granted.
Now, that sounds, even to me, like a lot of cover-up-the-mistakes/God’s-mysterious-ways glurge. But would you be willing to take my word that it’s the way in which Christians understand it to happen.
Well, Poly, I repeat my question, above, which no one has yet addressed. My friend Michael is a “good Catholic”—goes to church and everything. His parents came down with diabetes-related heart trouble and cancer, about ten years apart. Michael prayed and prayed (to God and Maery and Jesus and any number of saints) and went to church and had the congregation pray, too. Both his parents eventually died in terrible agony.
Poly, it sounds like you’re saying that only Christians would benefit from prayer. Other religions pray, too. But it has to be in Jesus’s name before it would be answered? How’s that work?
I disagree that prayer is not the same as magic, but that’s a whole 'nuther thread.
I must have missed the news. Was the concept of magic validated while I was napping this afternoon? What results can be assured via magic?
Yesterday I attended the funeral of a neighbor who had died of breast cancer. She was 38 and had two chiildren under 8. A very sad event.
During the funeral it was stated several times how much faith the woman had and how much the congregetion had prayed for her. In fact, she had been prayed for more than anyone else in that church, but she died anyway.
Apparently she had drawn strength from Richard, another member of the church. Richard was a young man with cancer and young children, and the congregation prayed hard for him also. Richard’s dead too.
I’m quite certain that my neighbor and Richard would both be just as dead had they not received any prayer at all. However I’m equally certain that their faith and the support they received from their congregation were of enormous help during their trying times.
I stand corrected. A modified statement would be, “IF some type of formulaic incantation would ALWAYS produce results, that would be magic, not prayer.”
This does not imply either that magic or prayer have any utility, but that the utility of mechanical formulae would be magical if they worked.
im agnostic, but i do think prayer has its place and for ppl of faith is very important. the misconception that i had, as many others, is that prayer is to get free gifts from god. fortunatley user Lorenzo has informed me otherwise. prayer is not oly to get what u want but also show your appreciation to the almighty and this i have no doubt, assuming (s)he/it exists, will be effective. as another usser mentioned above, it is also imporatant to remeber why and for what u are praying, fro example praying that your bothersome neighbor will keel over tomarrow is probably not something god will comply with. i think it is important to have general requests from God that you can help God help u achieve, because from what i am told by my frineds of faith, god will help those who help themselves (which in my interpreations just means that in case he isnt there, ur helping yourself and u’ve got ur ass covered) 
So the Lord’s Prayer, which is a pretty formulaic incantation, is actually magic and not prayer?
Eve: many Christians also believe in evil, evil that it is running rampant in the world today. Terrible injustices and tragedies occur all the time in this world and some ask why would a good God let this happen?
Many Christians believe that in this world God allows Satan limited power. Sometimes this results in good Christians dying horrible, horrible deaths.
Satisfying answer? Maybe not. A message board is quite possibly one of the worst possible forums for explaining one’s faith. Faith is personal. Faith is best demonstrated by actions and not just words or logic alone. Message boards tend to dichotomise issues, attracting the experts on both sides, so oftentimes you’re either preaching to the choir or preaching to those who are not open to your message. Jesus never forced anyone to listen to him or accept his message. We all have freewill.
And Christians surely don’t have all the answers. Many Christians have examined all the evidence available to them and put their belief in God and Jesus. Other folks look at the evidence and believe there is no God. But either way, it’s a belief.