A prayer question

Great Debates
1

FTR, I am not a believer in God and have no plans to become one. This is simply a question that occurred to me, and I wondered what the “correct” religious answer was.

A little girl prays that her father will not molest her anymore.

An elderly man prays that he will have enough money for food after paying the rent.

A woman prays for a raise at work.

Of the three prayers, only the third is successful. What is going on here?
Does your answer change if you are told that the first two pray-ers are true believers and the third only pays lip service to religion? In other words, why does God apparently discard some important requests and grant petty ones?

2

Zzzzzz.

3

I am a believer in God. I don’t believe that God answers prayers. I pray, but not because I expect to hear Charlton Heston’s voice booming in my head or a million dollars to suddenly appear in my bank account. For me, prayer is either a collective expression of longing or a kind of meditation. Your question is based on the assumption that believers think God answers prayers, and that assumption certainly isn’t true for all believers.

4

People are making moral decisions.

Jesus Himself petitioned to have His burden as Savior lifted. Everything in the universe is petty. Moral significance arises from decisions by free moral agents.

5

Aeschines, perhaps you could add your sparkling contributions to a thread that interests you?

6

I don’t think you’re going to get many people to defend the idea of a God regularly actively intervening through prayers.

7

Actually, Ludovic, that’s exactly what I did expect. I thought that was the whole idea.

(Then I thought, well, maybe someone from the Bible Belt could answer. Then I noticed all the posters so far are southern. Shot that theory down!)

8

Spreading the illusion that God “answers” your prayers “if you pray hard and long enough” is a sadistic cruelty. Especially when you make children believe this nonsense.
In my opinion a vast amount of the people who claim they “lost faith” are victims of this cruelty.
This illusion is linked to the idea that your existence on earth is what it is all about and that it should be “happy for ever after” because that is your “right”.
People believe in that illusion and don’t even notice that it is in clear contradiction with what religion and believing in God is all about.

Salaam. A

9

I’m an atheist, and I’ve “prayed” from time to time… but exactly as Metacom aid, it can be more of a meditation than an asking for help.

However, I think the little girl praying for help is expecting God to help her. Is it just too bad that she didn’t learn that praying doesn’t really mean God is going to help you?

Upon preview: Yeah, what Aldebaran said :slight_smile:

10

Don’t think that because irrational Fundamentalists are the loudest US Christians that they’re the only ones. Christians have been thinking about questions raised by faith (including this one) for a long, long time.

11

Can it be like the good sisters used to tell us in school, “God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is no.” Isn’t prayer/meditation supposed to have you focus on whatever is the problem du jour? After due consideration, weeping, pleading, expostulating, etc. shouldn’t we come to one of three possible conclusions. Either the event is insoluble, so we better suck it up and get on with our life, OR, sit back and see what happens, OR, put a few things in motion to hopefully achieve the desired result. If the prayer is “answered”, YAY God!!! If not, we didn’t pray hard enough, aren’t good enough or it’s too soon. God’s off the hook either way. Good for him, sometimes not so great for the petitioner. Why does God grant insignificant pleas, and ignore some major ones? Can only give you the company line. Not only does it give you the chance to practice the virtue of humility, but also shows that you have free will, since SOMETIMES you can change your situation, after God has seemingly turned a deaf ear. So it’s not like you’ve been totally abandoned, just that the playbook isn’t going according to your wishes.

12

I’d like to believe this but there sure a lot of people who thank God for answering their prayers when it goes their way.
Winner of a grammy or emmy “I’d like to foremost thank God”
Winner of the Superbowl “God was with us today”
Elizabeth Smart’s Father “God anwered our prayers and returned Elizabeth to us”

If god doesn’t answer prayers then I must assume one of two things

  1. He “works in mysterious ways” or “has a grand plan” in which case your prayers are dismissed since his grand plan outweighs any wish you might have
    or…
  2. He cannot interfere with nature or the free will of man, in which case your prayers will go unanswered since he can’t do anything about it anyway.

Which is why i’m agnostic. If I go with theory one then I believe if there is a god weilding a grand plan, he’s not too interested in what my indivdual wishes may be no matter how good natured, therefore i’m not too interested in him.
If I go with theory two then he has about as much control of the universe as Mr. Wong in Japan that I’ve never met. Since he’s not controlling anything or communicating with me, again, i’m not too interested in him.

13

I’m no Christian, so my definition of prayer differs quite a bit, but I submit the following:

In the first two cases, you have a submissive approach. The individuals, while they may wish differently, are powerless in their situation.

The third individual is not powerless. The prayers she does may serve as self-reinforcement to do a better job and get a raise.

Prayer does not magically change anything, like putting more money in your bank account or changing someone’s mind. You can use it to alter your emotional state, such as giving you more confidence to do a better job, the will to find a better place to live, if necessary, or the strength to stand up to an abusive father, or to turn him in. If you are lacking the personal will to change the situation and relying on divine intervention to make everything better, you perhaps do not understand the relationship with god portrayed by most religions.

I suppose I would say that you can draw emotional power from religion, but not physical change. A prime example is dealing with the dead. While prayer/ritual can sometimes emotionally bring you into contact with a spirit (say, your father who died coming to you in a time of great emotional distress to comfort you and give you the strength to make a decision), it can not bring back that person from the dead.

14

There are some other possibilities that you have dismissed based on your original two assumptions.

#1 Because God dosen’t answer your individual prayers does not mean by necessity that he dosen’t care about you.

#2 Because God has not interfered with nature on your behalf dosen’t mean that he can’t.

#3 Perhaps God has answered your prayers in way that you have yet to have realized.

#4 Perhaps you aren’t praying correctly.

#5 Maybe God has different priorities from you as to what is considered important. Maybe your prayers aren’t answered because you have yet to have prayed for the things which he finds most important.

Just some possibilites as to what might be going on with you in regard to God and prayer, although I don’t agree with all of those possibilites. Then again your evaluation of the situation is just as possible.

15

Considering that you are not a believer, and more importantly have no plans to become one, there is likely no answer that you will find acceptable. (Although I appreciate noting your bias) These are articles of faith and are answered on a personal basis as each person reconciles the often troubled world we live in with their perception of God and his purposes.

For the atheist, (FTR I am not one, nor do I want to speak presumptuously for them) this may very well be more evidence that there is no God.

From your example, I do not know what is going on here. The more global question you posed as to why God listens to some prayers (apparently) and not to others can be answered in part in the bible. (Of course, if you don’t believe in the bible this will offer nothing in the way of an acceptable answer)

God expects our prayers to be consistent with his will and purposes. (It is after all, his universe…) Jesus gave us a prayer, commonly called the Lord’s prayer, to serve as a “model.” (Matt 6:9-13) He prefaced it by saying that we shouldn’t say it by rote. (Matt 6:7) It is important however that our prayers be in harmony with his will. (1 John 5:14, 1 John 2:22, Proverbs 28:9) You would not, for example, pray for harm to be done to someone, or to pray to win the Super Lotto. It’s worth noting that the first 3 things noted by Jesus at Matt 6:9- involve God’s name, his kingdom and the advancement of his will. (before going to more basic needs like “our daily bread.”)

It is true that we must make an attempt to be doing God’s will for our prayers to be answered. (1 Pet 3:12, 1 John 3:22, Jas 4:3) We must also remember that not all prayers are answered immediately like a spiritual FedEx. It is important to persevere in prayer. (Matt 26:42, Phil 4:6, 1 Thess 5:17,18) Often we are “self absorbed” and that is often reflected in our prayers. A fundamental part of being a Christian is to become more selfless and develop an attitude of service towards God, and then to our fellow man, before ourselves. (Ps 25:4,5, Luke 11:2)

All of that is pretty much moot to a young girl is who is being molested, or a senior citizen who is starving. So what does (if he exists) God allow suffering to continue, or why do good people often seem to get screwed? It’s worth noting that this world’s misery is not of God’s doing. We inherited sin and death (and of the messy things that come from imperfection like rape and starvation) from our original parents. (Rom 5:12, Rom 6:23) That is not to say (and I’ll italics it lest someone say the little girl in your example “had it coming to her”) that God is unconcerned with our plight and doesn’t offer us some hope for the future. But the fact is that we are all given the gift of “choice” and our original parents “chose” to put themselves, and by extension us, in this bind. Satan has been the primary architect of this rebellion. (Acts 10:38)

Yet God has offered us the chance to live in a world where this misery is gone. (Ps 37:29, Ps 37:10-12) It might seem to us, escpecially when we are suffering, that God is unconcerned, or non-existent. However his will is being worked out and in his time relief for mankind will come. (2 Pet 3:9, John 5:28,29, Rev 21:4,Isa 65:17) He is not slow regarding his promises, although it surely can seem that way sometimes.

16

[quote]
Originally posted by the raindog Considering that you are not a believer, and more importantly have no plans to become one, there is likely no answer that you will find acceptable.

[quote]

That is true; I was just wondering what the party line is on that.

17

What makes you assume there is a “party line?” Are you implying that all religious folk are sheep who follow the prescribed agenda? Matters like this are an intense debate in most religious circles.

18

I appreciate your perspective.

Of course, you know that “Christians” can be a contentious lot, and much disunity seems to exists. So…I’m not sure that a “party line” exists.

That’s just my opinions from your questions…

19

I’ll share an interesting view that I once heard about prayer.
The idea was that God heard all prayers, and answered them in four distinct ways:
No. - What is being prayed for does not fit into God’s perfect plan for the one who prayed it, nor the other’s that the outcome(s) would effect.
Grow. - The one who is praying the prayer needs to grow in faith and devotion; a period of proving oneself to God so to speak.
Slow. - God will answer the prayer, but in His own time and circumstance, which may or may not suit the one who prays the prayer.
Go.. - The one who prays is appropriate in their timing and the prayer fits the timing of God and His plan, and so the prayer is answered in a more immediate time frame.

If you don’t have any belief in God or prayer, I don’t suppose any answer will make much sense. I’m not sure if prayer is something that necessarily should be or could be proven valid.
If a person prays and feels heard, and feels their prayers are answered, whether in God’s time or theirs… than prayer is worthwhile, if only for that person.

:slight_smile:

20

I think of prayer as a more assertive form of hope. We all hope for many things., In praying tho, I think of true believers not just hoping for something, but going to the source that (they believe) can make their hope a reality (whether he does or not). This way, the person praying is making some sort of effort–if only spending time praying instead of, say, watching the tube. They are then part of the process, and I believe their hope is somehow more tangible. This is conjecture, as I’m agnostic and not much of a pray-er.

On another note, not all prayers CAN be answered, at least not at the same time. Theoretically: I might pray that the Cubs win the series while you pray that the Yanks win the series. Obviously, both teams can’t win at the same time (unless Selig gets REALLY weird). So, this year when the Cubs win, you may feel your prayer wasn’t answered. But then, lo and behold, the Yanks win in 2034! So your prayer was answered, you just had to be patient, and wait for the prayers of the other 29 teams to be answered.

Just thoughts ~S