I guess it’s because “God” is supposedly responsible for everything. Which of course leads to the following question:
If everyone in the world stopped praying for 24 hours, what exactly would change? Would deaths and injuries rise? Would the wrong teams win championships? Would there be sudden changes in the weather patterns?
Well, if god is responsible for EVERYTHING, then he is also responsible for all the bad things that happen to people. Christians frequently talk about free will, but a god who can perform tricks and answer prayers has the power to stop the bad guys. I just don’t get it.
And cjhoworth, I’ll never understand how god would pass up saving the life of a sick person so you could tell a cop to go help someone who broke down on the side of the road, even though they weren’t in any danger of dying on a traveled highway WITH A POLICE PATROL NEARBY!
Here is my power of prayer story. I posted a Pit Rant about it awhile ago…
My son is adopted. Hence I’m on a number of adoption related list serves. Adoption is expensive, and the topic at hand was “how to pay for it.”
After several suggestions, one woman posted about her success with prayer.
She needed the first payment and prayed. The neighbor’s daycare provider went on vacation, and asked the woman to watch her kids for two weeks. That pretty much covered the first payment.
She needed the second payment and prayed. Her husband decided that he really didn’t need the motorcycle and sold it.
The needed the third payment and prayed. They decided to take out a second mortgage on the house - which was nearly paid off.
To her this proved the power of prayer.
Now, I’m an agnostic. And my husband’s an atheist. So I’m a little skeptical of this claim. Besides, we also needed money to finance our adoption. And - without praying - a distant elderly relative of my husbands passed away and remembered us in the will and voila, we got the money we needed - and quite a bit more. Without needed to refinance the house, or sell the motorcycle. So not praying seemed to yield better results than praying.
But I agree with Guin. Sometimes praying is all you can do. I think of it as “directed hope” and “directed gratitude.” Sometimes there is no one to thank, so you thank God. And there is no one to ask, so you ask God.
(I do get a little peeved when there are people to ask and people to thank and we overlook it, because we are too busy giving credit to God instead of the people that went out of their way. I hope the woman in my example recognized that her neighbor thought about her, realized she might need money, and paid her well - perhaps because God helped, but perhaps because of her own free will and because she was a thoughful neighbor. I hate it when a God I don’t really believe in gets credit for my actions).
'Course, there are huge problems in the sample size on this study.
I’ll bet your friend’s husband decided to sell the motorcycle because HE WAS TRYING TO RAISE MONEY FOR AN ADOPTION!
Why doesn’t that ever cross people’s minds?
And so the answer to prayer came in the fact that the husband was able to re-adjust his priorities and place the child ahead of his motorcycle, rather than a stream of money from heaven… It is still an answer… Prayers can be answered in the most mundane, ordinary ways; they do not require a miracle!!
**
I ask myself the same question… 
Gp
It sounds like you just want to believe that it was an answered prayer. There is nothing in the story to suggest that this was divine intervention! I mean, god didn’t come down and say, “Dude, sell your bike” or anything. The couple wanted to adopt a child, they needed money, and they sold the bike! Why does it have to become a mystical happening? The wife ought to be pissed off that she had to resort to praying for money in order to get him to sell it in the first place!
I just have to second the last sentence of Grimpixie’s post.
Obviously, all events can be attributed to chance, luck, or human will. But does this mean they have to be? Assume a universe in which a God playing an active role is an integral part of operations, and you can see ways in which He is at work. Assume a universe without a god, or with a god sporadically and miraculously intervening at mysterious and odd intervals, and you come up with chance, luck, and human will as the sole explanations for most events. The point, I think, is not in trying to decide whether God helped Aunt Hilda find her hierloom teapot, but in that overarching question of which sort of world you envision metaphysically. And here we’re working from different presumptions.
To be sure, I think we theists need to look carefully at Clarke’s(?) comment: “The universe not only permits coincidence, it requires it.”
Finally, my comments lately here have left a bad taste in my own mouth, since it appears that I’ve been making light of the kind and heartfelt comments in that other thread by attributing them to God’s intervention. That is far from what I meant.
Let me try a metaphor:
Gaudere is of course an administrator and moderator here. Part of her role is to ensure that a peaceful climate in which arguments over issues in GD don’t erupt into hostility between posters. Those of us who find such a climate to our taste do our part by attempting to defuse such situations through our own posts. While we are doing this completely through our own volition and for our own purposes, there is no doubt that we are doing Gaud’s will. And certainly we can pray her (by e-mail) to intervene and resolve a problem, and she may well do so – and she might even e-mail one of us who is involved and whose character she knows to urge on them that they use their insight to calm a brewing fight. (I don’t know if she has ever done this last, but it would not be beyond the realm of possibility.) In fact, a sanguine poster who intervenes to calm anger because he can see both sides to an argument, but who has never met Gaud nor read any of her posts, might be seen to be doing her will, even though he would have no knowledge of her existence.
Please note that if Gaud thinks that you’ve “sinned” against the SDMB, you’re gonna get punished now in full view of everyone, not sometime after you’ve “died”(gone from the SDMB).
Polycarp wrote:
"Obviously, all events can be attributed to chance, luck, or human will. But does this mean they have to be? Assume a universe in which a God playing an active role is an integral part of operations, and you can see ways in which He is at work. Assume a universe without a god, or with a god sporadically and miraculously intervening at mysterious and odd intervals, and you come up with chance, luck, and human will as the sole explanations for most events. "
I guess I just don’t understand why you would ASSUME a universe in which a god plays an active role. I certainly wouldn’t assume that with no evidence beyond a book written by mere mortals. I believe that the existence of a god is unknowable. You can want to believe that one exists, but you CAN’T know.
But supposing a god exists, how does he go about picking and choosing which prayers to answer? If we’re all created by him, he would want us all to be happy, healthy, and content. Even if he chose to exclude the “bad guys” from his prayer answering list, how do you explain the good people that have never done anything to hurt anyone, and yet continue to live pain-filled lives?
I think I would have a much easier time believing in a higher power if magic and favoritism didn’t play into the equation.
Well, if it is a metaphor for prayer rather than just an analogy regarding “In accord with X’s will”, it does not quite work perfectly since I am not omniscient (Oh no! I let the secret out!), as God is supposed to be. When people email me, they may influence me in that I was not aware of a situation, or not aware that a comment could be considering insulting (some obscure racial eptithet, for instance). If I knew everyone’s thoughts and everything that happened on the boards, we could remove those little “report this post” links. I suppose we could leave them up so people think they’re doing something even if they’re not, like the way people keep pushing an elevator button even if it doesn’t make the elevator move any faster… 
Well, I don’t assume that with no evidence beyond the Bible. I’ve experienced what suggested itself to be the presence of God in my life, initially calling me to believe and follow Him, and then in a chastening and sustaining role since. Admittedly, this could be self-delusion or an effect of something other than God – mischievous telepathic aliens, perhaps? – but given the fact that the effects I’ve experienced have corresponded to the promises He made, I accept it as His presence by Occam’s Razor – and hence am confronted with having to explain Him as a part of my worldview. (Please note that I’m not saying that you should believe on my testimony of this – I’ve seen enough strange stuff on the Internet to be able to guess your reaction to such a claim. But there’s a passage in the Gospel of John that says that people will be able to believe who and what God and Christ are because of the behavior of the people bearing witness to Him. So observe me online for a while and decide if I’m telling the truth about this or not.
I don’t. The “problem of pain” that you define is one of the knottiest questions around, and Eve and Guinastasia have both presented me with tough questions along these lines. The assumption is that His omniscience knows better than we what is best in the long run – but honestly, you’d be hard pressed to get me to accept that some of the agonizing drawn-out deaths I’ve seen are “best in the long run.”
Well, I suppose if a higher power spoke to me, I’d have a different view on the whole thing. But that brings up another question…why does he talk to some and not others? I’m perfectly willing to hear the call, but in 46 years, nary a knock on my door. And don’t give me any of that crap that I wasn’t trying to hear him. I’ve always been open to the notion, as are many people I know. We get nuthin’.
There is a lot about religion that can’t possibly be “best in the long run.” Failure of the Catholic church to allow women to be priestesses. The whole gay thing, the “only-do-it-if-you-want-to make-a-baby” rule, the no cremation thing, the orchestrated effort to protect pedophiles. And all this in the name of god. Hmmm…it doesn’t seem like he’s in the business of loving everyone, either.
echokitty, you said
As far as I know, God didn’t pass up saving anyone’s life in that particular circumstance. Given where the policewoman was, and other factors, I assume she was there to catch people speeding. I stopped, described the situation to her, and saw her drive off to where I’d seen the couple. No, they weren’t in any danger, however I do know being stuck by the side of a busy road with heavy, fast-moving traffic is no picnic. Also, if she had received a call saying someone was more in need of help, I sincerely hope the policewoman would have answered it.
Yes, what I described is coincidence. A great many things have happened in my life which are. I have chosen to believe they are answered prayers; I don’t require that you or anyone else do so. Masonite asked a question. I answered it as best I know how.
I’m a programmer. I know logic well enough to do my job, but I will not even begin to try to use it to convince you of my beliefs, anymore than I’d try to knit a sweater using a hammer. I have made a deliberate choice to take certain things on faith alone. I know the rationalizations which can be made, including the one which says the lonely little girl I used to be needed someone to love her. I also prefer to take comfort in the idea that someone is looking out for me rather than resign myself to the idea that the world is a cold, harsh, ugly place. If that’s illusion, so be it, but I sleep better and it wards off depression.
You’re right. My intellect can’t know that there is a god. My heart can. I realize that answer won’t satisfy you, and I regret it, but I can’t change it. I can’t tell you why things happen to one person and not another, nor will I try. I spent a decade kicking myself because I made it through high school and my best friend didn’t, and, believe me, she’s a far better person than I am.
As for “nuthin”, define it for me please. 7 years ago, I got on a plane back to my hometown an ex-mental patient who hadn’t held a job for more than 4 months in nearly 2 years. My engagement had ended, I was flat broke, I couldn’t drive, and I was going to move in with my parents to a place where the nearest store was a mile and a half away. I thought I was a failure at everything I’d done, everything I was going to do. I couldn’t even go to church at that point because my church was 5 miles away. I had faith, but that was about all, and it didn’t feel like much. I understand your anger. I have asked God “How could you let this happen?”, and no, I don’t always get a satisfactory answer. Oh, and don’t even get me started on the Catholic church. I told that long ago fiance even for him I could not convert.
What you choose to believe is your choice; what I choose to believe is mine. If that’s a copout, so be it. I’m a human being, and a still somewhat messed up one at that. All I can do is continue to believe, to try, and occaisionally take pleasure from a beautiful morning even as I read about the world’s ugliness in the morning paper. I can’t protect the world. I couldn’t even protect my best friend. I can believe.
CJ
Short answer = I don’t know
Slightly longer answer = I don’t know, perhaps there are things in your life at the moment that are preventing/interfering with your ability to hear His voice, but I believe that if you truly seek Him with all your heart, he will draw you to Him.
I have found Anselm’s prayers quite helpful in this (not for thier attempt to “prove” the existance of God, lest Polycarp despair ;), but in their expression of the desperate desire to know God more fully (all emphasis mine):
[quote]
Come on then, my Lord God, teach my heart where and how to seek you, where and how to find you. Lord, if you are not here, where shall I find you? If, however, you are everywhere, why do I not see you here? …
[I crave] to seek you, and [do] not know how to recognize you. Lord, you are my Lord and my God, and I have never seen you. You have made me and nurtured me, given me every good thing I have ever received, and I still do not know you. I was created for the purpose of seeing you, and I still have not done the thing I was made to do. …
Teach me to seek you, and reveal yourself to this seeker. For I cannot seek you unless you teach me how, nor can I find you unless you show yourself to me. Let me seek you in desiring you, and desire you in seeking you. Let me find you in loving you and love you in finding you.
[quote]
**
If you consider how your own opinions about what is best have changed during the course of your life do far, it might be worth considering how your opinions might change if you had the perspective of a lifespan of several centuries rather than several decades, then again how it might change if you had the perspective of all of time…
Gp
Unless he’s changed a lot, Uri never teleports, he sticks with cutlery mangling.
Testy.
CJ said, "As far as I know, God didn’t pass up saving anyone’s life in that particular circumstance. Given where the policewoman was, and other factors, I assume she was there to catch people speeding. I stopped, described the situation to her, and saw her drive off to where I’d seen the couple. No, they weren’t in any danger, however I do know being stuck by the side of a busy road with heavy, fast-moving traffic is no picnic. Also, if she had received a call saying someone was more in need of help, I sincerely hope the policewoman would have answered it. "
I wasn’t referring to the police officer passing up an opportunity to save a life, but SOMEONE was dying SOMEWHERE in this big world, and your god chose to send a cop over to able-bodied people broke down on the side of the road. This is what makes me crazy. When people speak about the power of prayer, I rarely hear anyone credit god with a really big favor…like life or health. It’s always “winning the big game” or “finding money” or something equally inconsequential.
I know people derive comfort from faith, and I’m fine with that. Actually, found it refreshing that you admit that its possible that you’re just deluding yourself. And I don’t deny the existence of a god. The simple truth is that it is unknowable. I have no problem with anyone worshipping in whatever way they see fit, if they would just admit that it is a crapshoot, and there is nothing to show that their efforts mean a hill of beans. The efforts put forth to be a good person, a good citizen, etc. are the ones that make a difference to you and your fellow man. Praying to a diety is just a choice.
Grimpixie, no one has the perspective of several centuries. Many people don’t have the perspective of even one decade! I agree my opinions and perspectives can (and do) change over time. As a person’s experience and wisdom expand, attitudes and opinions evolve. But the fact remains that the existence of a god is unknowable. It is taken strictly on faith. At this time in my life, I choose to put my faith in people and things that I can reasonably predict will be of benefit to mankind in general.
I have one for everyone. First, some background. I consider myself an agnostic with a lean towards believing. I’m leftist about most things and I’m extremely analytical. I have to see it to believe it. My religious views are even leftist. I subscribe to the next level, higher plane dogma. Kinda a cross between Buddism and Christianity I guess.
Several years ago, I was in an auto accident with my girlfriend (at that time, since split up). The car flipped 4 times, the driver died, my girlfriend was put in a coma, and me and another guy walked away with scratches (power of seatbelts).
Three different neuro doctors said she would be a vegetable due to brain stem damage. I sent around a mass email asking for prayers on her behalf. Took out the phonebook and started calling every church asking for their prayers (regardless of denomination, I figure a prayer is a prayer no matter to which deity your praying). I even emailed the pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury. (The Archbishop actually responded to me telling me that she’ll be in his prayers. I got an email back from one of the Pope’s acolytes telling me to put some cross thing around her neck so she won’t go to hell when she dies. Gotta love catholics.)
Anyway, she pulled through 100% (and I mean 100%) to the absolute amazement of all doctors involved.
That could have been coincedence or the prayer could have helped. I’m just glad she’s still alive today.
Second story and this one creeps me out. If I hadn’t seen proof of it with my own eyes I’d say the guy is BS’ing me.
This is about another family that was in the hospital the same time as my girlfriend. Their son was injured in a car accident as well and was in a coma. I’m trying to remember exactly how everything was told to me so if there are a couple little inconsistencies, please excuse me.
Anyway, the boys father goes to one store or another and needs to change a $20 bill for one reason or another. When he gets to the cashier, she gives him change and on every $1 dollar bill he received were the words, “Jesus loves you.” He notices this after he walks away and pockets the ones for savekeeping (you can imagine how emotionally positive for him as his son is in a coma). A couple minutes later he goes back through the cashier and again on every dollar he received was the same message. So the guy asks the cashier if she has any more in the drawer, which she doesn’t. So he hurries over to the person or persons that were in front of him in the line and ask if they received any of the bills (I believe he wanted to purchase the dollars off them) and they didn’t receive a single one dollar bill with those lines written on them. So he was the only person who received those dollars and apparently they all came to him who was desperately in need of such a sign.
The last time I spoke with him his son was recovering very slowly and I don’t know what happened to him after that. He may never have recovered at all and maybe their prayers weren’t answered. This however is the splinter in my side because it seems too much to be just a coincidence.
Jdeforrest
I’m glad for your friend and your friend’s son that everything is looking up. But it is still anecdotal. Besides, that doesn’t account for all the people who DIDN’T get better after prayer.
Point taken, EchoKitty, although what the OP called for was anecdotal evidence. But consider that in human affairs, statistical studies consist of nothing more than the aggregation of statistical evidence. In disagreeing with “ex-gay ministries” I have nothing more to go on than the fact that in thousands of reported life experiences no gay person has ever been able to change to not being gay (more discussion on this over in the Pit, if you’re interested). But the sum of those anecdotes and the absence of valid data to the contrary lead me to confidently advance the thesis that no gay person can be “cured” of being gay.
My observation would be that we cannot see things from a divine perspective, and do not know the consequences of X dying horribly or Y being granted respite from a problem that is not fatal. What if CJ’s roadside incident had not been avoided, and as a result a family had careened into them, all dying of their injuries – and the three-year-old boy passenger in the oncoming car would have grown up into a genius biotechnologist who discovers a cure for AIDS. Contrariwise, I have absolutely no grudge against Alois Hitler, Adolf’s father, but one cannot help but think that the world would be a better place if he had suffered a fatal fall while climbing a cliff at age 13.
Not that these are likely scenarios – but stranger things have happened in history, and we don’t know.
Polycarp, that’s right! We DON’T know! So why attribute it to something when you really don’t know what the true story is? Maybe it was someone else’s prayer being answered. Maybe someone was speeding down the road and prayed that any cops would get called away from their radar duties so they wouldn’t get ticketed! I would much sooner attribute something like this to the goodness of human nature than some mystical hocus pocus. CJ was just being a good citizen and the cop responded to a distress call.
I understand your desire to have a supernatural being take care of us here on Earth. The problem is, he only takes care of certain people. No particular method to his choices. He doesn’t do it according to need. He doesn’t do it according to goodness of the person. He doesn’t do it according to how many people depend on the person needing divine intervention.
Even if we had definitive proof that this god exists, in my book he would NOT be worthy of worship. There is nothing inviting about this religion (or too many others, as I see it). People fear this god. They are told to behave contrary to their own nature. They are threatened with burning in hell. God may have created us, but he doesn’t like us very much, does he!