The Prestige - Thoughts and Spoilers

He was convinced that Borden wasn’t using a double. He had to do the trick better than Borden, so teaming up with a clone wouldn’t have satisfied that need. Also, when Angiers first tested the machine on himself, he made precautions in case it worked. He didn’t want two Angiers running around. Last, I think it helps make a statement about which of the two magicians had the worst character flaws. We find out in the end that Borden was willing to sacrifice half of his life in order to get the trick to work. Angiers was willing to literally kill himself.

Looking back, one of the things that I find most interesting is that at the end the Angiers was a clone. If the original was transported, then the original was killed in the test. If the original stayed on the pad, then he was killed the first time the trick was done.

Oh yeah… and the obvious one. :smack:

Satisfying answers to both of my questions – thanks! :slight_smile:

Add in to that: just because they’re twins doesn’t mean that somehow they’re the same person. Her husband’s desire to perfect his ‘trick’ meant that she spent about half of her marriage with someone who was, in reality, a stanger pretending to be her husband. She may even have been intimate with this stranger. Hell, how can she be sure now which one is really her daughter’s father? The man who loves her, or the stranger with his face? Given the prudery of the Victorian era, that may be as much of a massive blow to the psyche as realizing that one’s spouse has been lying to you for ten years because there’s something he loves more than he loves you.

It’s just a betrayal at so many different levels.

I thought that the Borden twin who was framed for drowning Angiers was random. It just depended upon who had the bad luck to be publicly playing the role of Borden the magician at the time he was framed.

I don’t think it was a case of one of the twins being willing to die for the sake of the act. It was just a case of bad luck for one of the twins.

Unless you’re saying that the convicted twin could have blown the cover of his free twin brother in an attempt to gain his freedom … but didn’t do so in a charitable act of brotherly love (or for his devotion to the craft of magic).

But … how would such a revelation keep him from hanging?

Maybe Tesla didn’t know. Borden gets duplicated at some distance from the exhibition hall, and then meets up with himself later to explain.

It would have been a better movie if the duplicating machine was a fake, set up by Tesla to get money out of either Borden or Angier. Then either or both get killed trying a trick that was more spectacular than the bullet catch.

The magic duplicator is like a time machine - it opens up too many possibilities for the plot, any plot, to work. It’s like the time reversal at the end of the first Superman movie - if you can do that, you can do anything and any problem can be easily solved.

There is no art without the resistance of the medium. Magic duplicators have to have some plausible limitations built in, or there is no resistance.

Regards,
Shodan

I think it worked in this movie, because there is one problem that it can’t solve: Angiers obsession with beating Borden. Angiers has this machine that is extrordinary on every conceivable level, but the only use he can see for it is to one up another stage magician. As magical as the machine may be, it still can’t compete with Angiers’ monomania.

That’s true. It’s just that Angiers didn’t know that there were two Bordens.

This is exactly what I’m saying. The unfortunate Borden was willing to die for his devotion to his craft. All the convicted twin has to do is claim that he has a twin brother and provide some evidence. Of course, realistically speaking, no one would believe him, until he explained the trick. I’m sure that there is some evidentiary procedure that he could have filed where the court will have to assess the validity and weight of the evidence. Once admitted, the defense can use the evidence of the trick as evidence of reasonable doubt against conviction (or the very least, against a hanging – it was the other brother, not the one currently in jail that actually set the trap).

The reasonable doubt comes into play because he would explain that there is no physical way the trick can be done without using a double, and would then explain how he had a double for a very, very long time. Therefore, he could claim that it was actually his brother, and not him, who put Angiers into the water trap. Hmmm…if the UK system in the Victorian age is anything like the US system now, then I would probably go ahead and kill myself (j/k :))

Hmmm…ok, upon further review, it’s not as easy a solution as it sounds (to out the other brother). He would have to explain this whole level of one-upsmanship dating back to the accidental death of Angier’s wife.

It was more than chance, only one of the Bordens was interested in Angier’s secret. Witness the argument that he had with Fallon just previous to the show, and also his last words to him. It was chance in that he did it when he was operating as Borden, not as Fallon, but not which brother took the fall.

In fact, if you go back and watch closely, you can pretty much tell the two Bordens apart, above and beyond which woman they loved. Olivia’s Borden, the one that was hanged, was more excitable, crude, and vindictive towards Angiers. Sarah’s Borden, the survivor, was more gentle and gravitated towards the more refined and intellectual parts of magic. The two shared a fanatical devotion to their craft and a love for their daughter.

What would that accomplish, besides letting Angiers know that he had to knock off another Borden? Borden’s guilt wasn’t based on the secret of his trick, but Angiers’, which he didn’t learn until visited by Lord Caldlow.

Near the end, I just wanted to take Angier/Danton/Lord Whatever by the neck and shake him and scream, "You stupid obsessed shortsighted narrowminded GIT! Here you’ve got a machine that can produce unlimited supplies of food, clothing, medicine, building materials – everything the suffering people of the world really need – a machine that could wipe out human want and poverty forever – and you can’t think of anything better to do with it than STAGE TRICKS?!" :mad: :mad: :mad:

I saw this last night, and I loved it. However, I’ve got a different take on the film than anyone here, so let me lay it out and see if you think I’m totally nuts.

First of all, there’s a great deal of importance in what happens when Jackman hooks up with Caine after Jackman’s wife dies. Caine offers Jackman the vanishing bird trick, but Jackman doesn’t want it, because he doesn’t like the idea of killing birds. Caine, however, has come up with a way to do the trick without killing the bird! This is important for later on in the film.

After Jackman duplicates Bale’s “Transported Man” trick, Jackman says, “No one cares about the man who disappears, the man who appears is the star.” That’s why he drops through the trap door during the trick and goes into the tank (one of the reasons, anyway) to die, because Jackman is utterly obsessed with beating Bale’s characters, and being the best magician ever. So to drop and die is a small price to pay to be the greatest star, ever. That’s also why he shoots the duplicate who appears the first time he tries the machine out. He can’t stand the concept of there being someone who could share the credit. That’s why he’s shocked when Bale tells him they took turns in being the man who appears.

Bale met Tesla and got him to make the lightning generator for his trick (and may have let Tesla into the secret of how the trick was done, thus that’s how Tesla knew what it was Jackman wanted, since Jackman never said to Tesla what he wanted, other than to be able to do Bale’s trick). Bale knew the cypher would take Jackman a long time to crack, and it’d take him a long time to convince Tesla to build him a machine (that made lightning, Bale never suspected that Tesla could actually do what he did).

Now, here’s where I really diverge from what everyone’s said so far. When Caine meets the lord and sees that it’s jackman, he realizes that Bale’s completely innocent and going to die (Oh, and the reason Jackman only plans on doing the trick 100 times? A limited run ensures that Bale will come and check it out, and Jackman can get him out of the way.). This disgusts Caine. In the rivalry between Bale and Jackman, Bale never puts Jackman’s (or anyone else’s) life at risk. This makes Jackman a threat to every magician out there, because the moment they come up with a better trick than what Jackman has (and let’s face it, sooner or later the novelty will wear off on the public), Jackman will steal their trick and kill them. Caine, as you remember, came up with the trick to save the bird.

Caine get’s Jackman to explain how the trick works, Caine then goes tells Bale (the one running around as Fallon). The two of them hatch a plan. If you remember, even Jackman says that there’s no way the prison Bale’s in could hold him, and Bale says that so long as he has his red ball, he can escape. So Bale has himself duplicated in the machine, that version goes to the prison and does a swap with the Bale that’s in the jail. (So the duplicate allows himself to be hanged. This works because now Bale can resume the Transported Man act and perform without disguises since obviously the “killer” has been hanged.) The Bale that’s been in prison, is the one who goes and kills Jackman, while the Bale that’s been Fallon goes to see his daughter.

Oh, and the reason Jackman uses a tank to kill himself in? Because Caine told him the story about the sailor saying it was a peaceful way to go. That’s why at the end, Caine tells him it was agony. Because Jackman had been comforting himself by thinking that it was a peaceful way to go.

So why do I think that both Bales are alive at the end of the film? Part of it is because Caine is the fellow who came up with the trick that keeps the bird alive. If there was any way for Caine to save Bale from the noose, he’d take it. Bale, of course, would do what he could to save his brother. The only key, of course, being that they don’t reveal how the Transported Man was done. Also, when Caine is showing the original bird trick (the one where the bird dies) to Bale’s daughter, the bird dies at the same moment as Jackman, not when Bale is hanged. Another thing is that Bale allows the machine to be destroyed. The Transported Man is his trick, it’s his signature trick. Without it, he’s just another prop magician (and not a very good one, because of his bad hand). He would not allow the machine to be destroyed, if it could give him the chance to continue to perform the Transported Man trick. He’d at least make one more version of himself. Yet he doesn’t, therefore, he must have freed his brother. Also, when Bale appears in Jackman’s theater to kill him, he bounces a red ball towards Jackman. Thus indicating that he’s the one who escaped.

Of course, you’re probably wondering how he thinks that he can still perform at all given that he’s got the face of a murderer. Well, as has been shown in the film, he (and Jackman) are both masters of disguise, plus outside of London, few people are likely to have any idea of what Jackman’s supposed killer would look like, so they’ve no reason to suspect (and even if they did, the killer hanged, so it obviously couldn’t be him). Additionally, the whole spectacle of murder hanging over the trick, makes it that much more an enticing draw for the crowds, since they know they’ll be seeing a trick which a magician has killed over.

I had one minor problem with Bowie being Tesla (and mind you, when I realized that we were going to see Tesla in the film, I was practically screaming, “God, I hope they got David Bowie to play Tesla!”), Bowie needed to lose a bit of weight as his face was a bit too jowly to be Tesla’s, but other than that, he nailed it. If they ever do a biopic on Tesla, I hope they case Bowies as Tesla (or if they do a film version of the opera about Tesla).

What I’m wondering, is if the director intended for it to be revealed that Bale was a twin when I figured it out. I figured it out when Bale gives the message to Fallon and says to tell Scarlet Johanissan that he loves her, and we didn’t see Fallon talking to Scarlet, but Bale. Gotta say that it’s one of the best film’s I’ve seen all year.

I am going to bump this one again as I just saw it last night. I hope there is still enough traffic to answer a few questions.

First, my take on the plot. Two Bales made the natural way. No clones (for lack of a better word). Tesla had met Bale, but the only machine he built for him was for distraction. Tesla did not realize he could clone anything until Jackman found the hats and cats (Dr. Suess’s estate should sue). When Jackman used the machine, the one in the new place was the copy, and the one who went through the trap door was the “original” (not that it really mattered because the duplicate had a legitimate claim that he was Jackman.)

Now, my review. When I left the theater, I was kind of mad. I had been enjoying the film immensely until the reveal. The secret is indeed worthless once it is told because the fact that fantasy was injected was a cheat. I felt the same way Icarus did. I kept hoping for another twist that didn’t come.

And to all those that say we should not have needed the paint by numbers reveal at the end to show that Jackman had been cloned because we saw the hats and cats at Tesla’s lab, I offer two words: unreliable narrator.

When we learned of that, the film was being narrated by Jackman via his diary as read by Bale (it reminded me of the recent Simpsons episode where there were multiple flashbacks within each flashback). The end of the diary revealed that Jackman was getting revenge on Bale for his diary scheme. How were we to know that the machine was really genuine until we saw it in non-narrated time?

Especially those that kept hoping there was a real world explanation! So, I needed the reveal not to know what had happened, but to know that it REALLY did happen as narrated. I was more disappointed than shocked. It kind of sticks out in an otherwise realistic tale of murder and obsession. It wasn’t quite the ending of Magnolia. but it annoyed me a bit.

However, after a night’s sleep and reading the Doper thread, I have but aside my disappointment about the reveal and decided I really enjoyed everything else so much, I’ll forgive the inclusion of fantasy.

Accepting that one flaw, everything else was incredible. Bale and Jackman are awesome (Wolverine versus Batman, with great acting). The costumes and sets really sold the era.

David Bowie as Tesla (no idea until I read this thread) stole the film. Even with my disappointment, I disagree that they should not have used a real historical figure and then introduced fantasy. Remember Caine’s lecture? Show them something familiar to misdirect them. Plus the Edison/Tesla parallel allowed Tesla to give Jackman meaningful advice.

If you can get over the fantasy, the implications of Jackman’s trick ARE fascinating. His obsession to not just beat Bale but also be the greatest magician ever. Brilliant. The buildup was much better than any of the twists. I love that he tried to convince himself every time that he was not the one dying. I also appreciated the comment in this thread that he drowned because of Caine’s story.

The whole debate reminded me quite a bit of this thread about Star Trek teleporters. What constitutes “you”?

A few questions, some of which I don’t think can be answered-

  • Did the brothers know which of them was the girl’s father?
  • Why didn’t brother one just leave the daughter in the care of his “assistant” instead of fearing the workhouse so much that he sold his secrets?
  • It was the wife lover that survived right?
  • Something isn’t right about the blind stage hands. It seems that they could have been used by the defense at Bale’s trial. Even if they couldn’t see, they knew about the location of the tank.

Overall, I really liked the film, despite my objections.

You should always take time to edit a rambling post!

I haven’t seen this movie since opening day (when I started this thread!). With that in mind, I might be off base in some of this. First, there’s something that I’ve been reading in a few others’ posts that I just don’t remember. Angiers trick uses Tesla’s machine. It has the big impressive light show. From what I remember though, Borden’s version of the trick didn’t have any electrical discharges. He just bounced the ball. Borden never had/used a machine built by Tesla. Someone correct me if my memory is wrong on that. Based on that though, all the speculation of Borden meeting Tesla or being duplicated has no basis in what the movie presented.

I disagree with Tuckerfan’s take, but it is interesting. The main reason is this, the duplicates are exactly the same in every way. A duplicate of the Borden on the outside would only change places with the one on the inside if the original would have done it anyway. Since the original on the outside didn’t seem inclined (or capable?), I can’t see why a duplicate would or could make the switch either. Still, I’m looking forward to seeing it again (maybe not until it’s out on DVD) and watching the timing of some of the things mentioned in his post.

I also disagree with the criticism of using Tesla instead of a completely fictional character. To this day there are stories of fascinating things that Tesla created or had plans to create. He was a very brilliant, but very strange person. The factual character fits what is needed so well, that turning to a fictional character would just add unnecessarily to the story telling required. Also as noted, it allows for the parallel between Tesla/Edison and Borden/Angiers.

Do we actually know that the Borden twins partner swapped? Maybe there was something said in the dialog that I don’t remember, but it’s possible that they abstained when they were with the other’s partner.

I remember a line from someone saying that Fallon wasn’t going to be allowed to keep the child. He was considered to be an unsuitable parent or something (possibly due to Angiers greasing the right palm?).

I’m not 100% sure on this one. It’s one of the things that I want to watch for when I do see it again. I believe this is correct though, since I think the one in jail apologized for what happened to Sarah.

Perhaps they were well paid off or the entire jury was paid off? Otherwise just their testimony on what they heard every night should have been enough to help.

It was never an issue, but I think it’s safe to assume that only one brother took the marriage seriously.

I like Ragueleader’s answer. However, I was going to say maybe because Fallon couldn’t reveal who he really was. He didn’t want his secret to get out.

Yes.

What does that prove? What are you going to ask the stagehands?

Did you see Borden come down under the stage?
A: No, I’m blind. I did hear someone come down.

What did you do after every performance?
A: [first of all, why would this question even be asked? Borden/Fallon didn’t find out until after the brother had been sentenced.] I took tanks of water and stored them away somewhere.

It’s not what they did after the performance, it’s what they (or somebody) must have done before the last trick. Borden was accused of putting the tank under the trapdoor in order to drown his rival. But the tank was already in place each night, in order to drown the Angier who fell through. Unless Angier put it there himself, the stagehands must have done it.

Borden originally did the trick without any fancy electrical discharges, but after he saw the Tesla coil at the expo, he added it to the act.

The problem with swapping with the Borden on the inside without Tesla’s Clone-O-Matic is that you still end up with a dead brother and no clincher of an act. (Remember Borden trying to figure out how he could be a magician with a bum hand?) The Clone-O-Matic allows you to save the brother and the act. Don’t forget that the Bordens were so willing to keep the secret of the trick unknown, that they didn’t tell the people that they loved the most what it was.

Agreed. Having read a biography of Tesla, as well as danged near everything else I can get my grubby mitts on, nothing about him in the film seemed out of character. I’d be willing to bet that if someone had shown up at Colorado Springs with wheelbarrows full of cash and asked Tesla to build a Clone-O-Matic, he’d have given it his best shot.

It’s entirely possible that it wasn’t much of an issue. If they did their show five nights a week or so, and primarily swapped only for the show, then it would been fairly easy to not boink when they were with the wrong partner. I gotta say, though, if I was curled up next to Scarlet Johannasson, I don’t care how much I loved my wife, I’d have a hard time not nailing her, ya know?

Angiers’s lawyer told Borden that custody of the daughter had been awarded to Angiers by the judge.

Could be.

Angiers used a water tank in his act, so the fact that there was a tank underneath the stage wouldn’t be that unusual. There are a couple of problems, however. First of all, Caine didn’t know how the trick worked, so when he met privately with the judge, he could only give him the barest of details. Next, when would Borden have had time to go under the stage to move the tank under the trap door? Third, if he was trying to kill Angiers, why was he smashing the glass with an axe? Fourth, he didn’t get backstage until after the trick began, so he wouldn’t have had much time to get below, find the tank, push it (and if it held a couple hundred gallons, it would have been heavy) below the trapdoor, swap the locks on it, and then grab an axe to smash the glass. Of course, criminology at the time wasn’t nearly the science it is today. So the defense might have not have been able to make the kind of arguments we’d hear today.

In the first place - I doubt that the blind men were anywhere near the tank when Angier(s) dropped in; note from the staging that Borden walked well past the last one to get to where the tank was, and none were around that area.

Think about it - if you as Angiers knew a person was going to fall into the tank and get killed every night, would you want your stagehands close enough to be able to hear the muffled screams, the thrashing, the pounding?

Now, let me give you my closing argument as the prosecution.

"Gentlemen of the Jury:

"You have heard a great deal of testimony these few days regarding Mr. Angiers and the tricks he performed. You have also heard that there remains great mystery and confusion regarding how Mr. Angiers performed his feats of transportation. But pay that no mind. How Mr. Angiers performed his amazing feat is, in fact, irrelevant, and may never be understood by those outside of the fraternity of magicians.

"Regardless of how Mr. Angiers performed his illusion, we know that he followed a strict schedule of action every night, and instructed his stagehands to do the same. We know that every night, Mr. Angiers performed this schedule and survived. But on this night, he did not. The stagehands, and the stage manager, have all testified that there was no change in setup, that nothing was out of the ordinary. With one exception.

"The exception, of course, is that Mr. Borden - a rival of Mr. Angiers, one who had shown a previous desire to not merely humiliate but to actually cause injury to Mr. Angiers - managed to slip backstage.

"We still cannot answer how Mr. Borden arranged for Mr. Angiers to come to his death. But, as he is an accomplished stage magician, we must accept that his methods may be inscrutable and indetectable to us. What we do know is that he was alone and unobserved in that room for several minutes, and that Mr. Angiers was dead when the stage manager arrived.

“Therefore, members of the jury, you must decide: was it merely an astounding coincidence that, on the night that something horrible went wrong with Mr. Angiers’ performance, his arch-rival Mr. Borden should happen to lie his way backstage and stumble across Mr. Angiers drowning? Or is it, simply, that Mr. Borden, as a supreme magician, was able to understand how Mr. Angiers was performing his trick and able to sabotage it in a way that we, as non-magicians, have not yet been able to figure out?”

Except that the one in the machine after the duplication is the one who shot the one standing outside the very first time. That means that either a copy got killed by the original and then the original committed suicide the first time the act was performed, or the original was killed in Tesla’s lab and the rest are all copies. Either way, the Angiers shot by Borden has to be copy.