The "professional" Israeli Defence Force

As pretty much everyone knows the IDF is a force based heavily on conscription. My question or questions are

  1. How big is the full time complement, by which I mean Officers, NCO’s and other ranks who in it as a career rather than doing their national service.

  2. How is the recruitment process for those who wish to join the IDF long term? Are the recruited in the normal way as everyone else who is in for their service and then indicate that they wish to stay in longer or is there a seperate career track for them. If so does the training diffe for them.

  3. Are there any units or branches which are “professional only”? I can imagine that perhaps most if not all of the air force pilots are professionals, what about say technical branches like engineers or signals. Or the original technical arm, artillary.

You also need to look at their reserve system. They are very dependent on their reserves.

Yes I know. That is why I am asking about there full time professional force.

No Israeli here?

Four hours is a very short time to wonder where’s your an answer, AK84, y’know.

We do have a number of Israeli dopers, including some who are in IDF such as Alessan, but you may wish to consider that due to events unfolding they may be otherwise occupied right now.

From their previous postings plus what I read at places like globalsecurity.org andhere, one difference between IDF and most Western militaries is that virtually everyone starts off as a buck private doing their mandatory tour. There is no equivalent to West Point/Sandhurst/ROTC to place people in an “Officer Class” from day one, instead there’s a period of service as a grunt, THEN you apply to, and if qualified attend, NCO training or OC School and the command/specialty schools that may come as you progress. (Of course there are people who due to their test scores or skills or education the command already picks them to be future officers, but still they have to put in some time as privates before being sent to school)

According to Israel Defense Forces - Israel , once you are in, then you may apply to continue on as a professional (“career”) NCO/officer after completing your mandatory tour; the page states that as you suspected, those in high-training-investment positions (such as flyers) will be required to take on a long-term active-duty service commitment (just as happens in most other militaries).

Do you (or anyone else) know if this is an effort to prevent friction between the officers and grunts? Or what the general purpose is of doing it so differently?

Will have to defer to people with some familiarity to the actual policymaking. I’d be forced to speculate that it may derive from the IDF’s roots in Haganah, an irregular force where as in many such there would have been little “class” distinction between leaders and fighters; and which itself developed amidst the egalitarianist/socialistic foundational culture of the Israeli polity (also seen in the kibbutz).

Happens in Pakistan Army as well. All new officers are expected to in the first 2 or three months of their service house and train with the men. In anycase the are “broken in” by the senior enlisted men.

I can’t speak to how it works today, but this wasn’t quite so in the 1970s. My dad served in the IDF for only the mandatory term- he deferred his service until after college, then immediately entered officer and artillery training, and received his commission.

what’s so “different” about it?..to some of us , it seems perfectly normal :slight_smile:
In general, the Israeli army is very lax about rank, and there isn’t much friction between officers and grunts. This is true of Israeli society in general, too. In school, Israeli children call their teachers by their first names. In the army, it’s common for officers and privates to do the same.(except for basic training, where discipline is rigid for a couple months)

The atmosphere on an Israeli army base sometimes resembles the TV show MASH.

**JRDelirious **- I’m not *in *the IDF; I’m just a reservist.

OK, this is going to be a bit long and maybe a bit pompous.

The IDF has both career officers and NCOs, certainly, although no “career grunts”. I don’t know how many there are compared to other militaries, but I believe that their numbers are slightly lower than average.

Officers mostly do the same things they do everywhere, but career NCOs are almost only in “professional” positions - mechanics, armorers, electricians, programmers, cooks etc. With the exception of a few specialized positions (such as trackers), there are virtually no career NCOs in combat positions. That means that the military stereotype of the “grizzled infantry sergeant” simply doesn’t exist in the IDF.

Certain positions are indeed “professional only” - some of those mentioned above, as well as pilots and several others. While some of them involve a fast track to officership, they don’t *enlist *as officers. For instance, a pilot will start flight school as a private and graduate two years later as a 2nd lieutenant; however, if he or she drops out (as 19 out of 20 do), they’ll continue their service in some other part of the military at whatever enlisted rank they had reached by the time they were ejected. It’s the same with other “designated officer” tracks, including ROTC programs (who undergo military training during school vacations): the commission is a possibility, but never a certainty.

Note that all “designated officer” tracks, with the exception of pilots and certain naval officers, are always for non-combat positions (although most non-combat officers are also brought up from the ranks). Combat officers are always promoted from the ranks of combat NCOs.

Why is this? There are several reasons I can think of. One of them is historical. The way I see it, the way modern militaries are put together is a result of their societies’ military traditions, and their class systems. In the past, commoners fought in the rank and file, while gentlemen, who were expected to have some training in arms (remember that up until the 19th century, European gentlemen were expected to carry a sword at all times), led them. This basic format evolved into modern Western (and Western-derived) military traditions, where high school graduates - the lower classes - serve as enlisted and NCOs, while college graduates - the middle and upper classes - serve as officers.

The Jews who established Israel had no discernible class structure and certainly no military traditions. Moreso than any other nation on Earth, they had to build military traditions basically from scratch. As Israeli society is relatively egalitarian, and - as mentioned - as the IDF was built on the basis of underground militias, it was natural to lay the military down on relatively classless lines. Thus, every soldier starts at the same spot.

There are, of course, theoretical and ideological reasons the Israeli military does things the way it does.

First of all, it believes that the only way to know if someone is officer material is by seeing how they do as grunts and NCOs - the cream, as you will, will rise to the top. In a way, one may see the entire IDF enlisted ranks as one massive officer screening system.

Second, officers have to know what their men are going through and how they are thinking. A leader has to be able to put himself in his peoples’ shoes.

Third… consider the IDF’s attitude towards the role of the officer. It believes that an officer is first and foremost a leader, and as a leader he must lead from the front and lead by example. To do this, he has to be not only as good as his men in everything, he has to be *better *- smarter, tougher, more professional. How better to make sure that your officers are the best damn soldiers in their units (and in my experience, they almost always are), than to take the best soldiers and make them officers? Soldiers, like other primates, instinctively follow the most competent warrior present - it’s basic tribal behavior. Officers, especially junior officers, are expected to fulfill that role. That’s why the IDF doesn’t put much truck in saluting and other empty rituals: officers are expected to earn respect, not have it forced on them, and if they can’t do that, then maybe they shouldn’t be officers.

While the backbones of most military forces are their NCO corps, in the IDF, it’s the junior officers.

Thanks Alessan, but a question. You said that there are no career Other Ranks or NCO’s in combat positions, what happens when lets say a Tanker wants to stay on in service, dose he get that option or is he forced out, or has to become an officer.

Secondly you said that the IDF’s backbone is its junior officers. How dose that translate onto the ground. To take an example, in Commonwealth Militaries in a Company, of 300 men, you gave perhaps 5 officers (the Comp Commander the deputy commander, the three platoon lleaders and the sections iin each platoon are lead by an NCO). I know your organisation is a bit different, but would you have officers at even squad level?

Thanks for the clarification as to the way the officer/NCO selection works, Alessan(*)! Specially the variations between the tracks for Combat vs. Support branches.
(*and as to your status)

He can go be an officer (if he qualifies, of course), or he can go to Tank Mechanics school to be a mechanic, although I don’t think that happens much. Perhaps a company sergeant can stay in his company for an extra year or two, but no more than that.

You have the same amount of officers per company, but IDF companies are significantly smaller - no more than 100 men, and usually less. That means that platoon commanders generally lead no more than 30 men. In special ops units - the various *Sayarot *- officers command “teams” of no more than a dozen men.

But that’s not exactly what I meant by “backbone”; I meant, basically, that officers do all the work.

Final question, I promise(!). In most militaries the training of new recruits and to a large extent, cadets and junior officers is undertaken by NCO’s How is it in the IDF if there is such a turnover of NCO’? Officer again?

New recruits are trained in a company format, with NCOs, officers and various instructors working together. In combat units, the same company then goes on to active duty together. Even seen Band of Brothers? Sort of like the first episode.

Officer cadets are trained by other officers. New Officer’s School graduates are often asked to stick around and train the next class.