The quackery of Freud

This is a repeat of my post from the other Freud as quack thread, which unfortunately devolved into a thread on Dianetics :rolleyes: Nothing I’ve read in this thread makes this post any less neccessary.

  1. To be a quack, a person must “pretend to have medical knowledge.” (New Lexicon Webster’s Dictionary of the English Language (1989)) The on line Merriam-Webster site uses the synonym “charlatan.” It is not certain that a “quack” has to be a “fraud” in the true sense of the word, because fraudulent behaviour involves an intent to decieve, whereas a “quack” might really believe what he is doing has value.

  2. Did Freud “pretend to have medical knowledge?” Nothing that Unca Cece cites in his article discusses any lack of medical knowledge on the part of Freud. Instead, the Master asserts that Freud was a “quack” because he pretended to scientific methodology when, in fact, his methods were completely unscientific. In short, Cecil is calling Freud a scientific quack, a pretender to scientific methodology.

  3. rparkes fails to understand the concept Cecil is trying to apply to define science. The test of scientific thought is not whether at any moment the hypotheses presented can or cannot be proved false, but rather whether the hypotheses can ever be stated to be true or false on the basis of empirical data. Here, it isn’t important whether a particular hypothesis is correct or not; it is whether the assertion has verifiability. The debate about “creationism” centers around this issue: can the assertions of the creationists truly be tested through application of reason to actual data? (note, PLEASE don’t start a creationist debate over this assertion; if you want to discuss theology, go to Great Debates!) So the issue isn’t: Can Freud’s theories be presently proven by empirical data? It is: Can Freud’s theories EVER be proven false by ANY amount of empirical data? Cecil asserts that the answer to this question is, “no.” The Freudian practitioner derives a hypothesis, for example, that certain behaviour derives from certain occurrences in infanthood. The practitioner procedes to obtain confirmation of this hypothesis through analyzing the responses of patients to questions designed to provide an understanding of the cause of the patient’s difficulties. Where the process breaks down is that the “results” are defined by the practitioner, who uses the responses to determine what additional questions are asked, then interprets these results to refine even further the attempt to extract data. This is not science.

To anaolgize to a true science, suppose that an early astronomer decides to test a hypothesis that Mars orbits the earth. He trains his telescope on the heavens, and notes the position of Mars on ten successive nights. Based on his observations, he then determines that he need only look at Mars on certain nights thereafter, those nights being the nights on which the position of Mars is of any value to the issue: all other data about Mars’ position is irrelevant to the issue, he concludes. Then he takes the data on the nights considered important, fits them to his theory about relative motion, sees they agree, and asserts this means Mars circumnavigates Terra.

Now, such an astronomer would never get far, because other astronomers would be able to obtain the ignored data and use it to prove or disprove the hypothesis. But in the case of psychoanalysis, there is no ability for other psychoanalysts to disprove the conclusions of the person making the hypothesis. While they might reach other conclusions based on their own questioning, they can’t point to any specific data and say: “these answers prove that the hypothesis is false.” They are left with the less palatable option of arguing interpretation. This is NOT science.

It seems to me that it is much more likely that the scientific investigations initiated by and inspired by Dr. John Hopfield of Princeton will be more likely to provide a scientific explanation of how the mind works. Reducing the mind to quantum interactions, treating it as it is, a massive interaction of sub-atomic particles, we begin to comprehend just what makes the mind think. While we may never comprehend the entire complexity of the brain, we at least will be able to procede on such investigations in a truly scientific fashion.

Actually, somebody keeps trying to end-run claim it by taking the very typical “creation scientist” tactic of pulling cheap rhetorical parlor tricks on what constitutes “science”.

If you are adressing me with this, let me tell you that:

  1. I never had any doubts that you are not defending Freud
  2. I didn’t say you claimed these philosophers were scientists. All I said was that if you call Freud a quack, then you might as well call these guys quacks. And again and again and again I’m not saying Freud was a scientist either.

And, Wrenchslinger, you might be influenced by the Greeks but your mind still works in ways that Freud tried to explore. And he did some good work - and some bad.
Actually just like Aristoteles. His theory on logic? Great! His modell of the planets orbiting round earth? Plain wrong!

I think you missed that I was quoting and addressing T Mehr. I assumed his astrology comment referred to the astronomy comments in the other thread, since neither astronomy nor astrology were mentioned in this thread (unless I’ve forgotten it).

You are missing the point. Scientists are often plain wrong. However, the difference between a crackpot (quack) and a scientist is that the scientists is wrong in an experimentally verifiable way. The reason Cecil called Freud a crackpot is that Freudian theories are not experimentally verifiable.

**SlowMindThinking **

By this definition all philosophers are quacks.

Philosophers don’t put forth their dogmas as medical treatments. Freud did.

THAT is what makes him a quack.

DSYoungEsq, I think that dear Cecil used “quack” because a post 1990’s Freud would have called himself a mental health practitioner. Since he practiced, shall we say “debatable” techniques, he can be called a quack without redefining the word. I guess, as a scientist, he was a crackpot.

So can you live with this? One of the 50 great ideas in philosophy? And if Dinnardin tells us, he learned at college that 30% of Freuds ideas were good, then that’s a lot more than we can say about others out there. What bugs me is that you are refering to a guy that has contributed tremendously to pyschology, as a quack. Even if most of his theories now are seen as garbage that doesn’t change the fact that he started the whole thing.

By the way, the astrology business came up by Dr. Cobweb mentioning “astrologers, phrenologists, and various other quacks” a little further up.

I’ve never denied that Freud did some good work. And I’m not saying that Freud should be tossed aside as irrelevant. I’m only saying that you need to be realistic about the importance his theories have to today’s student of psychology.

I respect him for the fact that he took the theories of his predeccessors added his own speculations and formulated a new way of “understanding” the human psyche. This, combined with a new theraputic technique that proved helpful to certain patients in certain instances, got people thinking about how to deal with psychological ailments in a wholly different way. He got the ball rolling, let’s all toast him for that shall we?

That said, it is imperative that you take his theories and scrutinize them through modern lenses. When you do that, you discover a lot of flaws in some of his theories, some of them potentially harmful. Does this make him a quack? Well were he trying to pedal his particular brand of therapy today, yeah, some people might call him one.

Yes, Aristotle’s geocentric model was obivously wrong. And for this reason we don’t hold him up as one of the most important astronomers of all time. For the same reason I think it is very important we not hold up Freud as the most important psychologist of all time.

I never thought I’d say this, but … what dogface said.

The ironic thing is, Freud’s lecture was supposed to be about sips – that is, drinking hot tea slowly – but he misspoke.

<rimshot>

My point is simply this…
and it was the books point as well…

We should not throw out the good 30% just because the other 70% is not good…

That is still a lot of good

True enough.

However the fact that 70% is universally agreed to be no good should give us pause concerning the other 30%. What reasons do we have for believeing the other 30% has any credibility? Since we all acknowledge that it was never and can never be scientiically evaluated why shouldn’'t we just assume that it is all crap until shown otherwise by an independant source?

Now what Wrenchslinger says here sound like a compromise. But if you say:

then you might as well say Columbus was not the most important discoverer of America, he just found the way there. Just as Freud diecovered ways to examine the mind even if he couldn’t chart it all correctly.

And** Dogface **

My copy of Hornbys Oxford Dictonary says,** a quack is a person that dishonestly claims to have knowledge and skill (esp. in medicine)**

Even if Freud was wrong, he defenitely was not dishonest. He belived what he said. Why would he not? It didn’t earn him much money and society hated him.

The difference is that when Columbus ‘discovered America’ he really did make it to the Americas, that is beyond dispute. We also know that the manner in which he made his journey was sound, and Columbus’ discovery was replicated numerous times, proving it to be a true dicovery. morevover Columbus returned form his voyage with objective evidence of his discovery, and uncontradicted eyewitness accounts from his crew.

In contrast there is no solid evidence that Freud ‘discovered’ anything at all about the human mind or psyche. The manner in which he made his journey of discovery is shaky at best. No one has ever een able to replicate his jouney in any objective manner.

Your analogy might hold up if Columbus had claimed to disover America by sailing in a ship pulled by swans. Most of his crew say that such a journey never took place but Clumbus claims that such denial is a symnpton of swan-lag. However some of his crew do agree, and he says that they for some reason aren’t suffering swanl lag. Columbus has no Indian artefacts from his journey and no other objective evidence. Nor is he able to precisely describe a route by which to get to te Americas. Morevover whenever anyone alse attempts this journey they also canot provide objective proof of America being discovered.

Then would you say that Columbus was the most important discoverer of America?

** Blake **
You are again drifting into this science/not science direction of the debate. I know that it is damn hard to prove any of Freuds concepts. And if you claim it’s downright impossible I would think twice before objecting.
But the two points I’m trying to make are:
There is no dishonesty in what Freud did. Looking at your nice little story of Columbus, it seems to me that your opinion is: Freud was full of it and telling the people just some crap. I say: He was convinced of what he said. Hence no quack.
Be it 30% or whatever% some of his ideas are very good and if you think

then I wounder what independant source you mean. Thousands of psychologists are using these concepts ever day.

T. Mehr I am not drifting into science/not science. I am drifting into factual/not factual or correct/not correct. We all agree that what Freud produced was not science. I assume that you believe that it was factual/correct however. I am wondering why you believe even that, given that you accept that 70% of it was incorrect and counterfactual.

As for whether there was dishonesty in what Freud did, I never implied that he was dishonest. He need not be dishonest to produce tripe if he was delusional or incompetent. If Columbus honestly believed he flew to America on a ship pulled by swans, would that make his tale any more correct? Maybe Freud did believe what he was saying. I’m absolutely certain that David Koresh believed what he was saying, after all he died for it. I am sure that the September 11 hijackers believed what they said for the same reasons. And no, I’m not trying to compare Freud to those nutters. I am merely using popular examples of people who can be demonstrated to have believed what they said by the ultimate acid test, and yet who clearly believed and espoused rot. Belief does not make something true.

So we are back to where we started. 70% of what Freud said was tripe. Simply having belief in what he says does not make the other 30% correct. To me that says that we should consider the other 30% highly suspect. If a person has a 70% failure arte with what he says, why not follow the logical course and assume the rest is tripe until such time as it can be demonstrated to be otherwise.

Well no. Not according to the OED:

  1. An ignorant pretender to medical or surgical skill; one who boasts to have a knowledge of wonderful remedies; an empiric or impostor in medicine

  2. One who professes a knowledge or skill concerning subjects of which he is ignorant

Simply having belief in one’s remedy does not render one any less a quack by either of those definitions. If Freud was ignorant, and you admit that he was 70% of the time, and if Freud pretended medical knowledge, and you admit that he did, then he is a quack. If he boasted wonderful remedies, and he surely did, then he is a quack.

I’m afraid T. Mehr that Freud was a quack by OED definitions.

Yes and thousands of aromatherapists are using aromatherapy, thousands of homeopaths are using homeopathy, thousands of faith healers are using faiths. Do you consider all those to be valid treatments as well?

This is the problem I am having T. Mehr, and it is something you have yet to explain. Why do you credit Freud over a voodoo houngan? Both truly believe what they preach, both have thousands of followers using their concepts. Neither has any logically sound basis for their faith. Neither is open to scientific testing.

So why is the houngan rightly called a quack, but Freud not?

What independent source do I mean? Well you decide, but it will need to be something beyond having a lot of adherents because homeopathy has a lot of adherents. The question s why you have faith in Freudian analysis for curing depression, but presumably no faith in voodoo for the same condition. Both meet all the criteria that have thus far been given for Freudian psychology.

Well,** Blake ** let me ask you one question:
Do you belive in psycology at all?

There is an article in the latest issue of The Lancet on a bunch of children exposed to a disastrous fire and subsequent increase in anxiety, depression, aggression and alcohol abuse (Reijneveld et al. 2003, 362, p. 691-696). Not that it is particulary relevant here, I just happened to read it today and it fits. So, do you think there is no such thing as repression?
And do you think there are no projections, no slips and dreams are just arbitrary pictures?

Yes there are thousands beliving in aromatherapy. And it actually might work for some people. But you’d need a psychologist to explain why. It’s called a placebo.

So here is an interesting page on our debate originally from
Scientific Amrican. Although it is called Why Freud Isn’t
Dead
I find it rather unbiased and it provides a lot of cites to actual
studies on effectiveness of psychoanalysis.

An interesting conclusion: