The quackery of Freud

T. Mehr:

Well, perhaps not. But that is nevertheless the issue that Unka addresses in his column. And apparently, in the Cecil Adams universe, “unfalsifiable” = “unscientific” = “quackery.” Surprisingly primitive, really, coming from someone who claims to be the world’s smartest human being – Popper would no doubt be rolling over in his grave. Even I know better, and I’m just a lowly member of the teeming millions.

However, let’s be careful not to move the goal posts here. It would be a mistake on your part to imply that the “psychoanalytic project,” as envisioned by its founder, was anything other than an attempt to create a “natural science” of the mind. In other words, even if none of Freud’s defenders in this discussion have claimed that psychoanalysis is a “science,” Freud nevertheless did so on numerous occasions in his own writings. For example, consider this passage taken from his last published worked, An Outline of Psychoanalysis, finished only days before he committed suicide:

Although Freud seldom wasted much time writing about this issue, when he did mention it he almost invariably argued that psychoanalysis should be considered a valid branch of the natural sciences, one that dealt with the “objective” investigation of the human mind. And he apparently felt that the clinic, along with the Basic Rule of psychoanalysis (free association), provided a kind of experimental laboratory in which his theories could be tested.

After Freud’s death his followers tended in general to argue even more stringently (if unsuccessfully) for the inclusion of psychoanalysis under the umbrella of the natural sciences. The primary stumbling block was the issue of methodology, really. Proponents of psychoanalysis tried to argue that the therapeutic meeting was also a kind of “laboratory” that produced results which could reasonably be understood as “scientific.” Opponents argued that the individuality, variability, and subjectivity of those meetings mitigated against the possibility that they could produce anything even remotely resembling “scientific” knowledge. I would argue that by the late 50s or early 60s, the opponents of psychoanalysis had won the field, and that (due to a number of social and institutional factors), psychoanalysis seemed destined for the dustbin.

But at that point a new group of scholars, along with a few psychoanalysts, attempted to rescue the discipline by reorienting its knowledge content. Jurgen Habermas and Paul Ricoeur, as well as the influential analysts Morton Gill and George S. Klein, attempted to reposition psychoanalysis, not as a natural science, but as a “hermeneutic” (i.e., “interpretive”) discipline. They claimed that Freud labored under a “scientistic self-misunderstanding,” and that the “language” of the psychoanalytic theory – formulated in the idiom of the natural sciences – corresponded poorly the phenomena it attempted to address: such as the meaning of the patient’s suffering, for instance, or the interpretation of unconscious fantasies, and so forth. They argued that psychoanalysis could be better understood as a hermeneutic discipline – that it rested on an epistemological basis no better, no worse, merely different, from a “postivistic” natural science. Psychoanalysts flocked to this view, and these days, very few would attempt to defend the field as a natural science (as you rightly note).

As for Cecil’s column, I think it can be divided into two interesting, not necessarily related, questions: 1) was Freud a duck – uh, I mean, a quack; and 2) is psychoanalysis a science?

The answer to the first question, IMHO, is both yes and no. To take the no side first, Freud was without doubt one of Europe’s most respected neurologists, and certainly a respected scientist, prior to his development of psychoanalytic techniques in the last decade of the 19th century. This period of Freud’s life, his first 40 years, are all but forgotten in most biographies, although some work has been done on it during the last decade. (I can recommend Sulloway’s Freud, Biologist of the Mind to anyone who might be interested in history of Freud’s ideas, and in his scientific production prior to psychoanalysis). In particular, as a neurologist, Freud was an internationally-recognized specialist on aphasia, and published a large monograph on childhood aphasia that was still being used as a textbook on the subject 30 years later.

However, even this period isn’t without its dark spots. In particular, Freud discovered cocaine and for some reason became convinced that it was a new wonder drug. He participated in the experiments for its use as a anesthetic (for eye operations), although another physician (Carl Koller) “stole” the credit for the discovery. Anyway, the addictive, negative side effects of cocaine were gradually discovered, and Freud’s earlier work proved scandalous. He was partially responsible for at least one man’s death: he attempted to help him overcome a morphine addiction with a prescription of nose-candy!

Moving on to the “yes” side of the equation, Freud’s apparently false claims of therapeutic success via psychoanalysis are, to my mind, much more worrisome, and place him dangerously close to the “quack” category. In some cases, he simply “exaggerated”: for example, he claimed to have cured “Elisabeth von R,” who suffered from numerous hysterical symptoms, including an inability to walk. Years afterwards, Ms. Von R confided to her daughter that Freud was “just a young, bearded nerve-specialist they sent me to…He tried to persuade me that I was in love with my brother-in-law, but that really wasn’t so.” Although we can’t know for certain if Freud’s treatment had any effect on the woman, it is nevertheless the case that, according to his later theories, it shouldn’t have; he had not yet discovered resistance, transference, or the Oedipal complex when he treated Ms. von R, all of which he later would claim were necessary elements for a psychoanalytic cure (i.e, interpretation of the transference, removal of the resistance, and working through of infantile sexual fantasies).

In some cases it appeared that Freud lied outright: he claims in Analysis Terminable and Interminable that he had successfully cured the Wolf Man, which is simply false, and should have been know as false by him. The Wolf Man (Serje Pankejeff) was something of well-kept secret among psychoanalysts, continuing to live on their kindness and even undergoing an occasional re-analysis. Despite Freud’s statement to the contrary, he was never “cured.”

It’s a shame that Cecil has chosen to employ such a categorical and negatively-charged label as “quack” in reference to Freud. I don’t think one can say outright, with no reservations, that Freud was a “quack.” But, as I noted in the debate thread earlier, he certainly was a little “quacky” at times.

As far as the second question goes, well, I could write a bit. Suffice to say that I find it surprising that someone who claims to be the world’s smartest human being would employ the falsification criterion as demarcation between science and non-science, or use it to try to rule out psychoanalysis as non-scientific. Has Cecil never heard of Pierre Duhem, W.V. Quine, Thomas Kuhn, Paul Feyerbend, Imre Lakatos, or even Adolf Grunbaum? Underdetermination, anyone? Duhem-Quine thesis? The “tally argument”? No?

Mr. Svinlesha, I’m confused. From Blake’s quote of the OED we have a quack defined as “An ignorant pretender to medical or surgical skill; one who boasts to have a knowledge of wonderful remedies; an empiric or impostor in medicine”. We then have some pretty detailed descriptions of Freud claiming (even “boasting”) wonderful cures of people, some of whom died. But, then, you give a wishy-washy answer as to whether Freud was a quack. Sounds to me like he fit the definition, and more egregiously than many others for whom the term has been used. (“Don’t go to Dr. X. He’s a quack!”). He sounds like a quack to me.

Your defense of psychoanalysis as a science confuses me, also. You claim that the consensus became that psychoanalysis was not a natural science, but a “hermeneutic discipline”. In what sense are “hermeneutic discipline” science? Having been a natural scientist - a physicist - I think I know what that is. What are some hermeneutic disciplines that qualify as science? What are some that don’t? Seems to me that if something is explanatory, but not in a falsifiable, or even verifiable manner, that it is not a science. Economics, I suppose, is an “unnatural science”, but it is a science by the criteria discussed here.

Slowmind:

Actually, Freud first rose to prominence in the international scientific community on the basis of his highly respected biological and neurological research. As Peter Sulloway points out in Freud, Biologist of the Mind:

These publications were produced, admittedly, while Freud was still a poor research fellow, but it was clear that by the end of his career as a research scientist Freud was poised to first assist, and eventually replace, one of Europe’s leading biological scientists in one of Europe’s most prestigious laboratories.

In addition, Freud’s research in the field of neurology did not end with his decision to abandon the laboratory and start a medical practice. He continued to publish papers on neurophysiology with the same sort of energy that he later devoted to his psychoanalytic works. Between 1882 and 1897 he published no less than 19 separate reports, monographs, and lectures, in English as well as German, on subjects such as the structure of the medulla oblongata, new techniques for tracing nerve-fiber origins, the medical usage of cocaine, and cerebral paralysis in children (loc. cit.). With regard to this last topic Freud became an internationally recognized specialist, and his final monograph on childhood aphasia attests to this fact. Thirty years after its publication it was still in circulation; in 1936, the prominent Swiss neurologist Rudolf Brun described it as “a brilliant achievement, which alone would suffice to assure Freud’s name a permanent place in clinical neurology” (quoted in Sulloway, 1979: 17).

This record of academic achievement does not strike me as the work of a “quack.”

By the way, for the sake of clarity, Freud never “boasted” of curing his poor friend Ernst von Flieschl-Marxow, the morphine addict who went on to become a coke-head. On the contrary, Freud came to bitterly regret having prescribed cocaine to Marxow. His decision to try to treat Marxow with cocaine was, however, certainly an example of poor judgement on his part.

He did, however, boast of curing neurotics who appear, for all intents and purposes, to have not been particularly helped by him. I personally find that to be very problematic, but one must put things into perspective.

First, one must stop to remember exactly what sort of therapies – or, to be more accurate, tortures – were prescribed for “hysterics” before Freud. Some of them were relatively harmless – changes in diet, for example, or vacations at health spas. If the hysteric failed to respond, however – which was most often the case – more stringent regimes were introduced. Since doctors at the time knew that the human nervous system operated on an electrical current, they applied electrical wands and other devices to their patients. Sometime, in order to get a better effect, a series of rods were forced down the patients throat, and electric current applied internally. And so on. Finally, if all else failed, patients were remitted to mental hospitals where all kinds of nasty treatments were available: ice-cold baths; chairs in which one could be bound for hours, immovable; gurneys for spinning patients in circles, etc. All in all, not much fun. By comparison, Freud’s talking cures were pretty tame, even if they weren’t always particularly effective.

Secondly, one must take into account the nature of Viennese intellectual culture at the turn of the century. It was viciously competitive. Battles over the priority of given theories were the order of the day. Freud was in no sense alone in his tendency to exaggerate the effectiveness of his methods; it was pretty standard. In this environment, Freud was like a fish in water, I’m afraid. That’s no real excuse, of course, but it might explain some of the characteristics of Freud’s style, particularly his tendency to dogmatism.

Finally, it must not be forgotten that Freud and his early followers no doubt helped a great many people as well. Freud’s detractors tend to focus exclusively on his failures; but, to take an example, he seemed to have helped the Ratman quite well, at least until he went off and got himself killed in WWI.

Like many others who would “defend” Freud, my defense is not based on the idea that he was a perfect scientist or gentleman. I’m simply arguing that in defining Freud as a categorical “quack,” one risks throwing the baby out with the bathwater. My picture of Freud is more complex, that’s all. Certainly, there were serious weaknesses with both his methods and his theory, as well as with his particular style of applying them. But there were strengths as well. Freud discovered, for example, that talking about one’s psychological problems in the special environment of the analytic setting helped to alleviate them. He developed a bold theory of human psychology, in which an unconscious part of the mind was seen as existing side-by-side, and exerting influence on, a conscious part. Very few scientists who study the human mind today would deny the existence of the unconscious, as even Unca Cece points out in his column. There is significant extra-clinical evidential support for the existence of many of the ego defenses Freud (and his daughter Anna) postulated. And so on.

Does Freud stand up to critical scrutiny today? Not fully, at any rate; but then again, neither does Darwin, who was also wrong about many of the details of evolution. No one suggests Darwin was a “quack” just because he proposed that humans originally lived in “primal hordes” on the African plains, and one wonders why its so difficult for both Freud’s detractors, as well as his defenders, to place his work in historical perspective.

I may have been writing shorthand there, or not being particularly clear. It was not my intention to defend psychoanalysis as a natural science; I was trying to outline, very briefly, how some theoreticians attempted to “rescue” or “renew” psychoanalytic theory when it had become evident to most that it was not a science (at least in the positivistic sense of the word). They did so by claiming, essentially, “Okay, you’re right; it ain’t science, it’s hermeneutics – a field that’s different from natural science, but equally valid.”

You mean that, as a former physicist, you can’t think of a single theory in physics that, as far as we can tell, isn’t falsifiable?

I find that hard to believe.

Psychology defined as “The science of the nature, functions, and phenomena of the human mind (formerly also of the soul).
In mod. usage, the signification of the word has broadened to include (a) the scientific study of the mind as an entity and in its relationship to the physical body, based on observation of the behaviour and activity aroused by specific stimuli; and (b) the study of the behaviour of an individual or of a selected group of individuals when interacting with the environment or in a given social context. So experimental psychology, the experimental study of the responses of an individual to stimuli; social psychology, the study of the interaction between an individual and the social group to which he”

Yes I ‘believe’ in that. Actually I don’t ‘believe’ in it any more than I ‘believe’ in biology. It is just something that is and it doesn’t require belief. However you have already said that what Freud was doing was not psychology by this definition. You have taken pains to point out that it was not a science, and as such it fails totally to meet this definition.

Not having examined the issue in depth it is hard for me to have an opinion. I will say that I have no more evidence of repression as envisaged by Freud than there is for demonic possession causing the same symptoms.

Again, I really haven’t done an in depth study but ‘m inclined to say that those things exist. So what? The Bible describes an epileptic as ‘having a demon that threw him to the ground and caused him to thrash around’. Do you believe that no one is afflicted by conditions that throw them to the ground and cause them to thrash around? Of course you don’t. Does that validate the demonic possession theory of epilepsy? Of course it doesn’t. It’s an ad hoc explanation of the condition tailored to fit into the author’s existing understanding of human consciousness. Similarly Freud tailored explanations of dreams, slips etc to fit into his belief system so of course the conditions exists. That doesn’t provide any more support for Freud’s beliefs than epilepsy does for belief in demonic possession.

So T Mehr, I have patiently answered your questions. Will you now answer mine?

If Columbus honestly believed he flew to America on a ship pulled by swans, would that make his tale any more correct?

If a person has a 70% failure rate with what he says, why not follow the logical course and assume the rest is tripe until such time as it can be demonstrated to be otherwise?

Yes and thousands of aromatherapists are using aromatherapy, thousands of homeopaths are using homeopathy, thousands of faith healers are using faiths. Do you consider all those to be valid treatments as well? Not that I don’t want to know whether there is a placebo effect here. I want to know whether you consider aromatherapy, voodoo and faith healing treatments as valid as Freudian analysis? If not can you please explain why they are les valid?

Why do you credit Freud over a voodoo houngan? Both truly believe what they preach, both have thousands of followers using their concepts. Neither has any logically sound basis for their faith. Neither is open to scientific testing.

So why is the houngan rightly called a quack, but Freud not?

The problem is that you are allowing valid achievemnt in one field (neurology) as evidence of valid achievenmt in quite an unrelated field. Numeorous scientists have had valid achievements in one field and gone on to talk utter rot in others. Both myself and SlowMindThinking have had legitimate succeses in our respective fields of science (I assume). Does that mean that when we switch form our fileds of success to other fields that are not even scientific we somehow take some of that credibility with us? If I am a successful biologist and SlowMindThinking a successful physicist does that mean that if we begin practicing medicine in a manner that is not even scientific we can never be called quacks?

That doesn’t make any sense. Freuds scientific work as a neurolgist may have been top notch stuff. Tha does not tell us anything at al about his unscientific work as an analyst. He could quite easily be a top grade neurologist and total quack as an analyst, and this seems to be the case.

As a current physicist, I can’t think of a single theory (or even hypothesis) in physics which is not falsifiable. I can think of some which would require such extremes to falsify them that the human race may never be capable of the task: Some versions of string theory come to mind here. But in principle, they’re falsifiable. And I can think of some ideas which involve physics, and which are not falsifiable: Is Schrödinger’s cat alive or dead, for instance? But that’s not physics, it’s philosophy.

Can you think of any non-falsifiable notions in physics? I’d be curious to hear of them.

Blake:

Well, in fact, neurology and psychology are in no sense “unrelated” fields of study. Rather, they are overlapping fields of study; one wonders whether one can study the one without at least some sort of rudimentary knowledge of the other. We know that physiology factors affects our behavior, and vice versa as well. It would seem quite natural for someone with a background in neurology, seeking to treat patients who suffered from mysterious maladies like hysteria, to gradually move towards more psychological models of the syndrome, especially considering how it dumbfounded neurologists.

But my point was really more to Freud’s character. To call someone a “quack” is to imply that they are a charlatan, a liar, a cheat, or a con-artist. It’s a slur on their integrity. Okay, far be it from me to defend Freud’s character; all I’m saying is that there is more to psychoanalysis than mere “quackiness,” and to Freud than mere lies. And again, I have wonder at the “global” sort of rejection one sees in his critics. It is quite possible to maintain a critical attitude towards Freud’s work without dismissing everything he’s written as garbage or “quackery.”

I presented some examples above of ideas derived from Freud’s psychoanalytic work that are certainly not quacky – the existence of an unconscious dimension in the personality, the existence ego defenses, and so on. And in fact, I would argue that Freud’s commitment to a reducing his findings to a kind of “biological model” is responsible for many of his more outlandish ideas. But if you feel strongly committed to the idea that Freud was a quack, please don’t let me get in your way.
Chronos:

According to Popper, if a theory doesn’t produce a fairly large quantity of falsifiable observations statements, then it cannot be ruled scientific. To be “falsifiable in principle” doesn’t cut it for him: “…the criterion of the scientific status of a theory is its falsifiability, or refutability, or testability” (Popper, Conjectures and Refutations, 37). And in fact, many of the most speculative hypotheses of classical psychoanalysis – such as the existence of sexual energy in the form of libido – are falsifiable in principle.

I was thinking of string theory, actually, along with much of Steven Hawkings work regarding black holes, as examples of unfalsifiable theories in physics.

They are unrelated when one is undertaken as a scientific study and the other as something else. Once that happens they are related only in the sense that Planet X is related to astronomy or the Moon Landing Hoax to aeronautics.

Psychoanalysis maybe. However we have yet to see any evidence that Freudian psychoanalysis is any less quacky than voodoo. Would you care to explain why you believe it is less a quack’s field than voodoo?

“…and to Freud than mere lies.
[/quote]

I don’t think anyone has said that Freud lied.

Yes, and it’s quite possible to maintain a critical attitude towards voodoo without dismissing everything within as garbage or “quackery. However when even the most trenchant supporters say that 70% of Freuds work was garbage that give me reasonable grounds to draw a conclusion about the rest, given that the rest cannot be in any way verified. I apply this principle to Freud as I do to voodoo. Once something has been shown to be wrong most of the time it saves effort to assume the whole thing is wrong until such time as it can be established otherwise. If we were to follow what you say then we would never call anything quackery. That’s probably an admirable attitude, but if all you want to say is that Freud was no more or less a quack than an entrail reader then you won’t get much argument from me.

There are many non-quacky ideas in homeopathy and voodoo as well. So what? You seem to believe that if any belief system produces even one sound idea then it’s not quackery. That isn’t what quack means. Even a blind squirrel will find a nut occasionally. The defining feature of a quack is professing knowledge one does not possess. That one also manages to get it right occasionally is neither here nor there.

I’m not strongly commited. I would like to be convinced otherwise if I am in error here. But so far no one has been able to provide one criterion that separates Freud from a voodoo Houngan. Until someone can do that I will lump Feud in with the Houngan as a quack witchdoctor.

So tell us Mr. Svinlesha, do you believe that voodoo or faith healing is more quacky than Freudian analysis? If so then please explain where those treatments differ from Freudian treatments? If not then you are apparently saying that Freud is no more or less a quack than a voodoo houngan. That’s not saying much and I certainly won’t dispute it.

Blake you asked me:

sure

No. But my dictionary explicitly states that a quack is a dishonest person. And I belive that even if Freud was wrong he wasn’t dishonest. Even if he fabricated some data (which of course is not acceptable) he was convinced of his method.

Sounds reasonable, but I think it has been shown that this rest is very valuable. As stated above:“Nevertheless, psychotherapists of all stripes still tend to share two of Freud’s core beliefs”. That’s why I asked whether you belive in psychology at all. I should have asked whether you belive in psychotherapy, though.

In fact I do think all these things are bullshit. But if they work, they are valid treatments. Of course they can only work through the placebo effect. But if you checked out the link I gave you above you see that some claim that “the placebo effect is the primary active ingredient underlying all psychotherapies and even most drug treatments.” So why do I still think that psychotherapy is not voodoo?

It is physicaly and biologicaly impossible that homeopathy, aromatherapy etc. work (apart from the placebo effect). So I belive it’s bullshit, but if some people feel it helps them, let them do it. I’m not familiar with voodoo practices but I assume that it has something to do with ghosts that simply do not exist. Also bullshit.
Psychology deals with what’s inside your brain. With your unconscious fears and desires. These things are very real. They manifest in you dreams and also in your actions.
So you say:

I say: There are no demons. But repression sound to me like a conclusive theory.

Blake:

I really don’t quite know how to respond. You seem to have already made up your mind that PA is equivalent to a hoax, or to voodoo, and are asking me to prove that it is not. As you well know, proving a negative is a very difficult task.

Okay, first off, let’s tease apart two separate issues. The first is whether or not one can rightly classify Freud as a “quack.” The second is whether or not one can rightly classify Freudian psychoanalysis as a “quack’s field.”

With regard to the first question, I think that there are some question marks worth raising with regard to some of Freud’s work. But as I’ve tried to point out earlier, the state of knowledge during the period in question (say, from 1880 to 1920) was pretty primitive. Most physicians of the time, for example, held preposterous theories regarding the nature of hysteria, and often prescribed treatments that we would view with extreme skepticism today. Physicians would stick electrodes down the throats of hysterics and shock them internally. Such was the state of modern medicine in 1885. Were those doctors also quacks? If so, then we must rate practically every physician prior to, say, 1925, as a “quack.” If not, then why should Freud, whose theories were considerably more advanced (and compassionate, really) be singled out for such scorn and demonized (or, well, duckified, really) in this manner?

In contrast to most of his colleagues, who tried to find organic explanations for mental disorders, Freud believed that hysterical symptoms were psychological in nature. He believed this for good reason: physiologically, hysterical symptoms made no sense. A person suffering from hysterical paralysis, for example, displayed a significantly different symptomological picture than one suffering from a real, organic paralysis. In the latter, the paralysis followed the structure of the body’s nervous system: if a nerve were cut in the upper arm, for example, then the entire arm would be paralyzed and desensitized. In the former, the person might suffer from a paralysis of the forearm, have complete feeling in the palm, be able to move the thumb, but be paralyzed and numb in the remaining four fingers. The symptom picture generally made no sense from an organic perspective.

A person suffering from an organic paralysis of the leg walks by hitching his hip forward and swinging the leg up, in keeping with the nerve pathways that move through the back and down to the leg. One suffering from hysterical paralysis, on the other hand, limped along dragging his leg behind him; his limp made no sense, organically speaking. Yet neither one could voluntarily move his leg, and both appeared completely insensitive to pain. To Freud, the more he thought about it, the more it seemed that in hysteria, it was not the leg itself that was paralyzed; rather, it was the idea of the leg that was paralyzed, as if the somehow the hysteric’s inner, psychological representation of his body (his “cortical homunculus”) had somehow been damaged.

So then Freud went about trying to determine what could possibly lead someone to suffer from an apparently “real” paralysis due to what appears to be nothing more than a fantasy of a paralysis. He found that, in some cases, psychology trumps “reality,” and that our inner fantasies can determine that the reality of the situation, rather than vice-versa (he stated this point much more eloquently, I should add).

He spent a few months in Paris, studying under Jean Martin Charcot, then considered one of Europe’s foremost neurological authorities. Charcot had discovered that he could induce hysterical symptoms by means of hypnotic suggestion. The fact that a person could be put into a hypnotic trance, given a post hypnotic suggestion, and then carry it out afterwards – without remembering anything that had transpired during the hypnosis – led Freud, and many others, to suspect that some section of the mind was somehow “cut off” from consciousness, but nevertheless capable of exercising an influence upon the personality and behavior of a person. Exactly how this worked, however, was something of a mystery. (By the way, about 99,9% of Charcot’s theories turned out to be wrong, and his methods were often far removed from what we might consider “scientific” nowadays, but no one calls Charcot a “quack;” instead, he is considered a respected pioneer in the burgeoning field of psychology.)

Back in Vienna, Freud began experimenting with hypnosis on his hysterical patients. But he gradually became disillusioned with it, in part because even when he succeeded in alleviating the patient’s suffering, the symptoms invariably returned after a short respite, and in part because he discovered that he was a really lousy hypnotist. So he went from hypnotizing patients to attempting to delve into their minds by placing his hand on their foreheads and asking them to tell him anything that happened to come into their consciousness. He gradually discovered that, with his hysterical patients, much of this material was sexual in nature. These patients often recounted scenes of sexual molestation as children – in fact, Freud began to suspect that this was a necessary prerequisite for the development of hysteria later in life. In 1896, Freud published a paper on the basis of 13 case studies in which he argued that neurotic disturbance in adults stemmed from childhood sexual abuse (his “seduction theory.”) Given the general taboo towards sexuality at the time, Freud began to suspect that painful conflicts over precocious sexual activity were somehow present in the “cut off” section of the mind and, from that vantage, exercised an influence on the personality in the form of a hysterical symptom.

It would be patently wrong to argue that the seduction theory is unfalsifiable. A single counter-example – a single patient who had developed some form of neurotic symptom without suffering from any sort of seduction as a child – would serve as a falsifier. Several such examples would decisively falsify the theory. In fact, Freud abandoned the theory himself, on the basis of another falsifier: it seemed unreasonable to conclude that so much childhood seduction was going on in Vienna. But he still had a problem: his patients continued to produce stories of sexual seduction during their analytic treatments.

And so on. I’ve presented this short, admittedly simplified, summary in an attempt to show that there was nothing patently “quacky” about Freud’s work. He was deeply involved in a scientific debate at the time concerning the nature and origin of neurotic symptoms, and presenting his findings in papers and so forth. Granted, I’m overstating the case somewhat – there is some truth to Crews’ accusation that Freud pressured his patients into producing memories of a sexual nature – but explaining that whole thing would probably require several pages of digression into intricacies like Meynert’s theory of “associationism,” “mechanism,” and so forth.

As far as your claim that Freudian psychoanalysis is a “quack’s field,” it would help if you could back up that assertion with a couple of examples, so that we could discuss the question in detail. I have no doubt, of course, that some therapists who claim to be Freudians are quacks.

The definition of quack presented in this thread implies that someone “pretends” to knowledge they don’t actually possess. Isn’t that lying?

Well, two points: the issue is not whether or not theory can be “verified,” but whether or not it can be falsified. And as has been pointed out several times already, much of Freud’s theory has been “verified” (or survived falsification tests, if you prefer). Are you simply going to wave your hands and say that those elements of Freudian theory that have survived the test of time don’t have any bearing on its status as “quackery”? If the counter-examples I (and others) present don’t count, then what does?

Hypothesizing the existence of the unconscious, as well as a number of details about the way it works, is a far cry from a blind squirrel finding a nut. And I would be interested to know what sort of “non-quacky” ideas one can derive from voodoo or homeopathy. Can you link to any scientific studies of these subjects that provide evidence that one or another of their fundamental hypotheses are correct?

Voodoo is part of a religious belief system, neither a science, a hermeneutic discipline, or a therapeutic treatment.

Faith healers are commonly used in English hospitals, and I believe some studies have shown them to be quite effective. Of course, some faith healers are quacks.

I’m uncomfortable making comparisons of the kind you seem to want to force upon me. I am not saying that Freud is no more of a quack than a voodoo houngan (whatever that is). I’m saying that he’s no more (and no less) a quack than, let us say, Havelock Ellis, Albert Möll, Hughlings Jackson, Richard von Kraft-Ebbing, Alfred Adler, Jean Martin Charcot, or any number of other neurologists, sexologists, and pychologists who were prominent during Freud’s lifetime (most of whom have been forgotten by all but a few specialists now). And I am saying that he was probably less of a quack that Carl Jung, for example.

After all, most his work is more than 75 years old; it would be a sad state of affairs, indeed, if we had not discovered that much of it was in need of revision.

Y’know, only a fool attempts to use a dictionary as a hammer.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quackdef.html

Try reading that.

A quack can be very well-intentioned and sincere and be a quack, nonetheless.

So, tell me vy you haf zis fixation upon defending Herr Doctor Freud? Perhaps you are compensating for ein oferly-shtrong Oedipal Complex und you are beset mit der der ofervelming guilt und zerefore shpend your days doink zis self-impossd penance in defense of ein metaforikal vater-figure, ja? Nein? Ach! You are merely in denial.

The OED though says that dishonesty is not required. You can use your definition of you like, but according to the far more authoritative OED both Cecil and I are justified in calling Freud a quack. The sum of your argument seems to be that Cecil and I used the wrong dictionary. Pretty weak IMO.

Been through this. The fact that a lot of other Houngans share one Houngan’s belief does not show them to be valuable. That is a blatant argument from popularity.

Argument from ignorance. You are saying that since we don’t know that Freudian analysis is physically impossible, you believe it to be possible. That’s pretty poor logic. All else aside you can not establish in any way that homeopathy and aromatherapy are physically and biologically impossible. If you dispute that then try comparing Freud to faith helaing. To suggest that you can prove the existence of God is physically impossible is clearly ridiculous. All you can say is that there is no plausible mechanism. Unfortunately there is no plausible mechanism for Freudian analysis either.

Circular logic. Freudian analysis was formulated based to explain unconscious fears and desires and dream manifestation. To then argue that the mere existence of those things makes Freudian analysis real is circular an totally unconvincing. We are back at the demonic possession theory of epilepsy. The mere existence of epilepsy does not validate demonic possession and more than the mere existence of subconscious desires validates Freudian analysis.

Argument form assertion. What happens if I say. There is no repression . But demons to me like a conclusive theory.

With all due respect T. Mehr your reasons for faith in Freud over voodoo seem to be entirely base on demonstrable logical fallacies. Of course you have a right to believe in Freud or voodoo as you see fit, but Cecil tries to writes from a logical perspective and logically and according to the world’s most authoritative dictionary Freud was a quack.

** Mr. Svinlesha**

And as I have repeatedly pointed out, everyone acknowledges that 70% of Freud is total kaa kaa and on par with voodoo. I believe it saves time to believe that the other 30% is also quackery until I see evidence otherwise. That’ s only sensible. If you can’t provide that evidence that’s fine, it just vindicates my position. However if my position is wrong then I would like to see the evidence so I can change my position.

and

Were they ignorant pretenders to medical or surgical skill; Did they who boast to have a knowledge of wonderful remedies? If so then yes they were quacks. I will deal with contemporary doctors as they become an issue. If the meet the definition of a quack then I will rightly label them as quacks. You know, if it looks like ad duck and it quacks like a duck…

Saying that Freud was no more a quack then his contemporaries does not make freud any the less a quack.

Are we back here again? I thought we had all agreed that Freud’s work was not scientific and not falsifiable.

But once more round the Mulberry bush. The problem is that there is no way to tell whether a patient has experienced any sort of seduction as a child aside form that patient’s own verbal evidence. Unfortunately Freudian belief says that if the patient tells us she suffered seduction that verifies the belief, but if she denies she suffered seduction she is in denial and that also verifies the belief. There is no falsifiablity here because Freud stated that any outcome validates the belief.

It is far from short.
It also shows nothing, and certainly not patently. Freud’s biography is irrelevant, it’s an argument from authority. The belief stands or falls on its own merit. It doesn’t matter how much Freud travelled or how long he worked on it.

Mr. Svinlesha can you please try to keep your posts on topic and to the point just to keep them to a readable length. Huge chunks of Freudian biography or resume are irrelevant and I just skip over them. They are simply another form of argument from authority and will convince no one of nothing. The belief must stand or fall on its own merit. Whether Freud travelled Europe and spent years working on it, or if he lived his entire life in a monastery and developed the belief in an afternoon is of no consequence.

We have spent the entire thread doing this. Freudian analysis relies on unscientific, untestable, unfalsifiable beliefs in intangible entities. If you believe that it is less a quacks field then voodoo then please explain how using logically valid argument. The fact that it was developed by a white man who travelled Europe and worked on it for years etc. does not make it any less quackery.

No of course it isn’t. In my neighbourhood the local Rabbi and the local Hindu yogi both claim to present the word of God. Clearly they can’t both be right. So are you saying that one or the other is lying? I believe that neither is lying, but logically one must be ‘pretending’ to knowledge they do not in fact possess.

No it is not. We had already conceded at this point that Freud’s work was not scientific so falsifiability was no longer the issue.

Let’s clear this up. Have we or have we not come to consensus that Freudian theory is not scientific?

If we have thn survival of falisfication is a non-issue. The existence of loa spirits survives falsification if it is not scientifcally formulated.

If you are claiming it is science then we will need to see some of these examples of falsification, because reviewing the thread I see none at all that stand up to even brief scrutiny. Freuds very belief stated that a positive result verified the belief while a negative result was evidence of dnial and ipso facto verified the belief. No room for falsification

No it isn’t.

One of the important bases of homeopathy has been that small doses of an active toxin can provoke a response that makes a body safe from future exposure to large doses. The very basis of vaccination/innoulation. Is that non quacky enough for you?

Voodoo practices include the use of narcotic drugs in the relief of pain. Is that no quacky enough for you?

Yes I can readily provide numerous papers that validate vaccination and the use of neuroblockers for pain relief.

And that makes it less of a quack’s field how?

You are saying that some faith healers are no more or less quacks than Freud was. Freud was essentially on par with a faith healer when it comes to medicinal quackery. I think that is sufficient for me. It tells us all we need to know about your standards for medicine and where we should rate Freud’s work beside other medical treatments.

I think you guys are missing the point. Maybe its just me, but the importance of Freud isn’t whether or not his work is credible in how he came about it, or to what extent he failed these preconcieved notions of pure science. What’s important is that an entire REAL science, that of psychotherapy and clinical psychology emerged because what he did led to helping people. No matter what else can be said, this is a success. 100% success. Because of him, just the fact that the mind is curable of its ailments became a possibility.

I think Freud deliberately put the wrong conclusions about Oedipal complex and such in his book, to let future generations figure out what he was really up to: that he was chronicling the damage that systematic and institutional child sex abuse does to children and how it affect the children as adults. Without him couching his conculsion as he did, I don’t think the data and transcriptions he put out would never see the light of day, much less so thoroughly analyzed. this is Victoria England after all; genteel folk just do not talk about it.

You fail to mention the greatest contribution made by Freud, which is the concept of the dynamic unconscious. Yes, Freud did focus quite a bit on sex, but I believe that was due in a large part to the culture he was in. He understood very well that anxiety, panic, obsessions, depression, may defend against libidinal (sexual or loving) thoughts. He did not understand so well the process that occurs so frequenrly today: sexual thoughts and behavior defending against aggression, anxiety or depression. You see, it can work either way, sex can either be defended against, OR it can be a defense.

His concept of the dynamic unconscious permeates our culture. It actually was well known in literature prior to Freud; think of the Greek tragedies, Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. Much great literature contains an heroic, but tragic character, who is compelled toward self destuction, in spite of all his conscious efforts to avoid it. Think The Godfather, Hamlet, even Bonnie and Clyde. We are all too familiar with the experience of knowing perfectly well, consciously, what we should do, but then being driven to do exactly what we know we should NOT do.

This is how psychoanalysis works, as opposed to cognitive and behavioral therpy. It is a process that effects unconscious and emotional factors, and, as such, may seem ambiguous. This process does not easily lend itself to simplistic answers. The fact of the matter is, if we had the power to “decide” to be happy, or successful, or confident, etc, then WHY would we ALL not just decide to do it? The answer is that unconscious factors are at work, and they effect our ability to CONSCIOUSLY or COGNITIVELY control our thoughts, feelings and behaviors.

Giving a vocabulary to this unconscious mental life was Freud’s greatest contribution. He also feared it would be his most controversial. As it turns out, we are not masters of the universe, we are not even the masters in our own house.

You fail to mention the greatest contribution made by Freud, which is the concept of the dynamic unconscious. Yes, Freud did focus quite a bit on sex, but I believe that was due in a large part to the culture he was in. He understood very well that anxiety, panic, obsessions, depression, may defend against libidinal (sexual or loving) thoughts. He did not understand so well the process that occurs so frequently today: sexual thoughts and behavior defending against aggression, anxiety or depression. You see, it can work either way, sex can either be defended against, OR it can be a defense.

His concept of the dynamic unconscious permeates our culture. It actually was well known in literature prior to Freud; think of the Greek tragedies, Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. Much great literature contains an heroic, but tragic character, who is compelled toward self destuction, in spite of all his conscious efforts to avoid it. Think of The Godfather, Hamlet, even Bonnie and Clyde. We are all too familiar with the experience of knowing perfectly well, consciously, what we should do, but then being driven to do exactly what we know we should NOT do.

This is how psychoanalysis works, as opposed to cognitive and behavioral therpy. It is a process that affects unconscious and emotional factors, and, as such, may seem ambiguous. This process does not easily lend itself to simplistic answers. The fact of the matter is, if we had the power to “decide” to be happy, or successful, or confident, etc, then WHY would we all not just decide to do it? The answer is that unconscious factors are at work, and they effect our ability to CONSCIOUSLY or COGNITIVELY control our thoughts, feelings and behaviors.

Giving a vocabulary to this unconscious mental life was Freud’s greatest contribution. He also feared it would be his most controversial. As it turns out, we are not masters of the universe, we are not even the masters in our own house.

I’m not using a dictionary as a hammer, but as you rightly guessed in the last two lines of your post, english is not my native language, so I once in a while do use a dictionary. In this case though, I didn’t open it before I wrote the OP - and my argument is not, as Blake suggestes, that Cecil and he used the wrong dictionary. But let’s look at your link:

As I sayed, I didn’t even open my dictionary (neither the wrong nor the right one), but I’m simply one of most people. We can of course discuss whether a word means what is written in the dictionary or what most people think it means. Communication is easier if we use the latter definition.

But then it goes on:

This applies to psychoanalysis.

Schwierige Frage, darüber muß ich noch genauer nachdenken.

Blake:

Unfortunately I’m posting from work so I don’t have access to my notes. But let’s see…

Surveys of experimental tests of classical Freudian can be located, for example, in Paul Kline’s Fact and Fantasy in Freudian Theory, as well as Fisher and Greenberg’s series, The Scientific Evaluation of Freud’s Theories and Therapy: A book of readings, The Scientific Credibility of Freud’s Theories and Therapy, and their latest (which I must admit I haven’t read yet), Freud Scientifically Reappraised: Testing the Theory and Therapies. Each of these volumes lists numerous examples of tests of various elements of Freudian theory, many of which have clearly stood the test of time. These should be complimented, however, in my opinion, by Eysenck and Wilson’s somewhat more critical survey, The Experimental Study of Freudian Theories.

In the GD thread about Freud’s “quackiness” I listed several online outcome studies (of literally hundreds) designed to evaluate the effectiveness of psychoanalytic therapy, the overwhelming majority of which reveal positive results. Rather than re-list them here, I refer the reader to that thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=204839

I’m more than willing to point you in the direction of studies that confirm (or fail to falsify) Freudian theory, but don’t expect me to sit here and cite study after study to a skeptic who automatically dismisses every one as “irrelevant” or “inconclusive.” You claim to be interested in learning what might be of value in Freud’s theories, but as far as I can judge thus far from your posts you’ve already made up your mind.

*Indeed, we have not agreed upon that at all. Rather, Cecil has employed Karl Popper’s outdated argument, long fallen into disrepute, that falsification is a useful demarcation criterion between science and non-science, using psychoanalysis as an example. I object.

This is precisely the problem with your (and Cecil’s) objections; they rely on a kind of “comic book” version of psychoanalytic theory. In short, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And you don’t know because you’ve never bothered to take the time out to actually read Freud or any of the psychoanalytic work that’s followed in his footsteps. Apparently, you think Freud and other psychoanalysts are total idiots who can’t ever admit that they might be wrong; I mean, after all, even a child could see how stupid such reasoning would be, were it to correspond to the real state of affairs regarding Freud’s theories.

However, if you were to review this assertion from a more critical perspective, the following possibilities might occur to you:

  1. A seduction has actually taken place, and the patient rediscovers it in the therapeutic setting.

  2. A seduction has actually taken place, but the patient denies it in the therapeutic setting.

  3. A seduction has not actually taken place, but the patient nevertheless rediscovers one in the therapeutic setting.

  4. A seduction has not actually taken place, and the patient does not rediscover it in the therapeutic setting.

All of these 4 are distinct possibilities, and it is the job of the therapist, together with the patient, to gradually ascertain which of these 4 corresponds most closely with the actual state of affairs. Freud states quite clearly and specifically, on a number of occasions (and he addresses this question most directly in his paper, “On Constructions in Analysis” – which you, who speak with such authority on Freud’s quackiness, have no doubt read) that neither the patient’s denial nor his/her affirmation of a given interpretation, or construction, can be taken as evidence that it is correct or incorrect. After all, denial does exist; so sometimes, when someone says something isn’t true, they may be in denial. But in addition, a patient may idealize or be in awe of their therapist, and go on to agree with him or her even if the interpretation/ construction is incorrect. Therefore, in order to determine whether or not an interpretation or construction is correct in analysis, one must look at other factors in combination with the patient’s verbal agreement or disagreement, such as how the patient reacts in subsequent sessions, if the interpretation causes an improvement or deterioration of the patient’s condition, if it enables the patient to access other, forgotten, perhaps repressed, memories or fantasies, or if it leads the patient to begin seeing his/her behavioral patterns from a new perspective, etc.

If you think that analysts go around forcing their patient’s to accept everything they say as the word of God, oblivious to the patient’s responses, the possibility they might be wrong, or the reality of the analytic setting, then you simply don’t know what you’re talking about.

However, I will grant you that there are some analysts who operate on that basis. I would refer to those analysts as quacks, myself.

First off, I will write as I like, for as long as I like, about what I like, in this discussion. If you don’t feel that what I write is worth reading or responding to, please feel free to skip over it.

Secondly, as far as I can tell from this discussion, you have not presented a single original idea. You do not appear to have read so much as a single word of Freud’s works. You have not yet presented, yourself, a single example of what you believe to be Freud’s quackery, other than simply restating what you read in Cecil’s article and the subsequent posts in this thread. In response to T. Mehr, above, you write, “* Of course you have a right to believe in Freud or voodoo as you see fit, but Cecil tries to writes from a logical perspective and logically and according to the world’s most authoritative dictionary Freud was a quack*.” That statement, Mr. Blake, is in fact nothing other than the clearest example of “argument from authority” I’ve yet seen in this thread, and, to accuse others of what you are yourself doing is, well …

projection, isn’t it?

I guess I missed a lot while digging out from my paperwork.

Mr Svinlesha, you clearly know way more about psychology than I, but less about physics and physicists. It is not so much that physicists take pride in only developing theories with experimentally verifiable predictions, as it is difficult to construct such theories within physics. Physics deals with explaining something demonstrably concrete - they physical universe. Yeah, it may be abstract as hell, but it still attempts to explain physical things.

Now, I could never claim to be Einstein reborn, but I did have a pretty firm grasp of General Relativity. It is not clear to me if you are really talking about all theoretical work regarding black holes, or just Hawkings’. If the former, rest assured there are copious verifiable predictions. If the latter, then I assume you are talking about black hole evaporation? If so, tests are within the grasp of the human race, if just barely. At least one proposed particle accelerator might produce “microscopic holes”. I haven’t done the math, but I assume they are small enough to produce observable radiation. (If I remember correctly, smaller holes are brighter than large.) At any rate there is nothing intrinsically untestable about them.

String theory is harder to defend. One great criticism of it (by me at least! :wink: ) was that early work was not producing testable predictions. But that was a matter of development. The goal of the various string theories was always to produce verifiable predictions. The same is true of D-brane theories. For example, there is no reason why such theories could not modify Hawking radiation calculations. It has been a long time since anyone considered string theorists to be crackpots.

But, if they were to venture into a related field, such as nuclear power plant engineering, they could be. I sometimes wonder how Penrose is considered amongst those who study the mind. He would be the closest analogue to your description of Freud.

I guess in my mind, if Freud claimed to cure several people that he did not, he was a quack. (It is one thing to be mistaken about one or two, if there is a good reason for the mistake.) If he knew he did not cure them, then he was an unethical quack.

However, Cecil was really addressing whether or not Freud was a crackpot. Sounds like it is at least debatable. One could certainly argue that Freud did not intend to produce nonverifiable theories. And it sounds like at least a few of his theories are verifiable, in principle. For example, I can imagine testing his theory of Freudian slips by testing the frequency of such slips versus related slips. (Using the wrong word for familar items that do not have any sexual or familial content, such as plum and prune.)