ps. Audrey, I love you.
For what it’s worth, I used to install and repair both Macs and PCs. The more I used the PCs, the more I came to appreciate the Mac. Windows is just so backwards in some very fundamental design aspects.
Why have a menu in each window, so that I have to orient myself in two dimensions to click it, rather than slamming the mouse to the top of the screen? Why have about a dozen different means of closing a window? Why do you shut down from the “Start” button? Why have the whole “parent-child” window concept? Etc., etc…so many little things, but they all add up to a clumsy UI.
In addition, I was never impressed with the hardware. I can’t tell you how many times I had to wrestle with a network card because something (usually a sound card) wanted to use the same IRQ. Or, how many times I had to diddle with jumpers to install a second parallel port for someone. This is the freakin’ Year 2000, we should be (and some of us are) far beyond that crap by now.
As for Bill:
What exactly would I want to access “beneath the GUI”? DOS? You may want 1981 technology under your OS, but I sure don’t want it on mine. And if you want to get “under the OS” on a Mac, look into ResEdit and MacsBug.
The “fewer application” argument bugs me. I mean, how many applications do you use? Most folks use about 10 regular programs, with 3 or 4 core apps, all of which exist on both platforms. What do I care if there are 40,000 or 400,000 applications available if I’m only going to use 10 of them? I’m assuming that when you said “applications” you meant “games.”
I hope they never “wise up.” I prefer having only one mouse button. It’s easier on the finger (no stretching to the left and right) and no accidental clicks of the wrong button. If you want a multi-button Mac mouse, they’re out there. I prefer the standard.
I’d like to conclude with my own experience with Mac/PC users: Bill and others like him seem to think that Mac users like the simplicity of the interface because they’re afraid to do anything on their own. My experience is the opposite: Mac users are less afraid of their machines, because they’re less likely to break (it’s mighty hard to make a Mac stop working). As a result, they’re less afraid to experiment, add new things, install new programs, and move files around. They always seem to be thinking, “Hey, maybe I can do [new thing X] with my computer!” PC users, on the other hand, are used to their computer breaking if they move a single file to the wrong place, so they limit themselves to opening and closing their programs, never doing anything to upset their fragile system. It’s just sad sometimes to see how Windows users are afraid of their own machines.
I was a Mac user for years. I have been a PC user for the last three years, with a year of cross-platform use.
Why the switch? Price, mostly. Macs are hideously expensive in comparison to PC’s primarily because Apple never made the right decisions on opening their architecture up, insisting instead on remaining a company that sells computers, not a company that sells an operating system and related software. Which company got THAT decision right? hehehe, look at the stock baby…
But, which is easier to use? Mac. I am ALWAYS having to worry about updating this or making sure that is not conflicting on the PC; Mac software and hardware is really simple to plug in an use (with the only exception being the old SCSI ring conflicts). Macs also are blessed with software that is basically the same from title to title; my kids used to use it at the age of 2 without any difficulty. Which has more software titles? PC, and this can be important. As an attorney, I enjoyed the switch because the cost of voice recognition dictation software on the Mac was ridiculous ($1000 for the only program that really worked decently) when the same thing was $100 for the PC.
But I do miss my Macs…
Yeah, IRQ’s can suck sometimes, especially the limited number (A reason I want SCSI). As for the jumpers: Get a jumperless MB…it’s the year 2000, anyone who still uses jumpers is backwards. 
PC’s are good machines. Macs are good machines. It all depends what you want to do. If you want to do graphics, go buy a $3K Mac (Since only the more expensive Macs show a better improvement in performance). If you want to use DV editing, use either, since there isn’t a huge difference between either platform, it depends what software you’re using.
I know way more programmers that use C++, C, Java, etc. on PC’s because PC’s are more programming friendly. I haven’t heard of anyone that uses a Mac as a network server, since AppleTalk sucks in that respect. I also don’t hear many people buying Mac’s to play games, because that’s just not what they’re designed for.
The primary beef I have with Apple is that all it’s equipment is proprietary. Now, while this generally means somewhat better hardware, it also means much higher expenses (Don’t even get into "Well, they have iMacs and iBooks…those are slugs). The only benefit that Mac has over PC’s is the G4 processor. If you are unhappy with how stable your PC is, get Linux. If you want more optionsand versatility, get a PC. You want power, get a Mac.
I’ve used Macs since 1985 when I cut my teeth on a school lab full of 512Ke’s and Plusses. Fifteen years later I have no regrets for having invested in learning the Mac architecture and acquired a library of software.
I have used PCs off and on. There is no denying that the PC world has come a long long way, interface-wise. The Win95+ interface is so much better than the Win3.x predecessor, or the raw command-line DOS. (Does anyone remember PCTOOLS from a company called Central Point? It gave you a “tree” display of files and folder hierarchy, plus a configurable menu for launching apps, moving, copying, deleting, renaming or getting info on files. It was a DOS text-based GUI, in fact. Until Win95 it was my favorite PC interface, although some DOS apps could not run with it because of memory constraints applicable in those days. But I digress…)
Why would I not swap to the PC platform? Aside from the lack of any imperative reason to do so, since I am not experiencing PC envy, these are the main reasons for NOT swapping (and kindly note that marketing and blind loyalty do not appear on the list):
a) Major software: 15% consideration. I’d have to buy the PC versions of Photoshop, WordPerfect (or possibly WordPro), Excel (or possibly 1-2-3); Cakewalk to replace SoundEdit 16; a CD mastering program or programs to replace Toast and Jam from Adaptec; Norton Utilities; a serious industrial-strength AntiVirus program, I guess; Adobe Acrobat; Bryce; a morphing program equivalent to Morph; and probably a couple others I haven’t thought of. Not a huge deal, but time-consuming and of nontrivial expense.
b) Minor software: 40% consideration. The zillions of slowly acquired and treasured ABSOLUTELY PERFECT customizations in the form of Extensions and Control Panels and tiny little shareware applications that make my Mac MINE, some of which I’ve had since my Mac was an 8-MHz box with a little 9-inch black-and-white screen, e.g. Chris Wysocki’s 1991© Escapade; Dave Warker’s 1988© Remember?; James Walker’s 1988© OtherMenu and 1989© Carpetbag; Nobu Toge’s ©1990 Flash-It; others of which are more recent acquisitions, like the versatile and elegant Snitch by Mitch Jones in 1993; Turly O’Connor’s © 1997 FinderPop; Nick D’Amato’s © 1998 Desktop Resetter. Then there’s the mass of commercial software and shareware like St. Clair Software’s DefaultFolder and CE Software’s QuicKeys and Aladdin’s DropStuff / Expander combination and many others. When I launch a program one someone else’s machine and go File:open, I hate trying to maneuver to the file I want to point it at because I’m so spoiled by the versatility I’ve gradually built into my own machine (click on the file itself with the mouse and the window jumps to that part of the folder/drive hierarchy; or click on the Defaultfolder widget and select from recently visited folders or favorite folders; and once I’m in that folder, the file most recently opened by that application in that particular folder is highligted–a wonderful thing if you’re methodically performing a task on every consecutive file in a folder–as per my preferences). If I switched to PC, it would take years, maybe decades, for me to locate and acquire and configure the tweaks and hacks that would make the OS behave as I want it to.
c) Starting Over in Geeksville: 45% consideration. It is a totally different architecture. My years of experience that has taught me how to recognize a corrupt PRAM problem or force a recalcitrant system to boot up from a different hard drive’s copy of the operating system is going to be USELESS as I sit there staring at the third blue screen of death in a row trying to boot NT or try to figure out why my DSL service has disappeared from the list of “Properties” when I right-click the My Computer icon even though it seems to be set up right in the Network Control Panel. It’s not so much that PC ailments are necessarily worse or tricker than Mac ailments (although I’m admittedly enough of a Mac partisan to think they probably are; I’ve watched my PC-owning brethren futz with…but that’s another story for another time), but that I’d be only a step and a half beyond total newbie and I’d have to learn so much from scratch.
The PC people who complain about the Mac are what bother me the most. Most Mac people need only say that their Mac is superior; PeeCeers want to cut the Mac down. Question is, WHY?
There is a huge vested interest for IT pros to keep PeeCees “everywhere always.” Truth is, PeeCees are much more work to maintain, and that secures their need in the marketplace and their careers. Mac pros do not need IT people (in fact, IT guys always come to me with Mac questions). The IT people have often said “Macs are for people who don’t understand computers.” Truth is, THEY don’t understand the Mac. Otherwise, why would they come to me (a graphics guy)?
Due to this lack of knowledge, Macs integrated into a PeeCee network make the IT pros nervous. They are often incapable of integration without the assistance of a Mac guy, which only makes them look unknowledgeable to superiors. This is why, IMHO, so often an IT pro will be hired to head up the computer department and begin his tenure by announcing that the company is getting rid of all Mac and moving to a single platform - PeeCee. What these IT guys are doing is making their OWN job easier, when they are hired to make EVERYONE ELSE’s job easier.
Mac require less IT management, and if more companies understood this, there would be more Macs in business use (other than in the graphics industry). Every argument against the Mac, from a professional point of view ranges from pure silliness to damnable lies, evidence of either 1) The person making the argument has never really used a Mac and has no idea what they are talking about, or 2) their livelihood is based on the proliferation of PeeCees. Sometimes its both.
In fairness, it really comes down to your personal taste and productivity. Those of us who chose the Mac believe that OS to be superior in every professional way imaginable. But the same could be said by a person preferring the PeeCee. And that is where this debate can never be resolved.
Point for point, as some PeeCee people have pointed out:
- Floppies. C’mon. If you are still using these fallible buggy whips, you deserve them and the computers that use them.
- Programs. As stated quite well by Audrey, there are FEW titles not in use on both platforms professionally. (The exception will always be games, but that’s a hobby, and there are many, many games available on the Mac).
- Code management. I can break into the Mac OS’s code as swiftly and adeptly as any IT can on Windows.
- OS Features. There are pluses and minuses on both sides, but there are GOBS of third party freeware, shareware and commercial ware that enhance the Mac far beyond what PeeCee dudes think. Dozens of web sites host these utilities for download. But the OS will always be a matter of personal taste.
- Cost. Comparably equipped Macs and PeeCees are fairly equally priced. Some Mac models end up cheaper, and some more expensive, than a similarly outfitted PeeCee. This largely comes down to the deal you can get if you shoot for a customized PeeCee without features you don’t want or use, which is a valid argument. I’ve known pros who build their own PeeCees for less than half the price of a comparable Mac, but often they are able to do so because they are using the buying leverage of companies they do business with professionally that buy in bulk. This cannot be done with a Mac, but professional models do allow for customization and expansion.
(sarcasm)Die you heathen Mac users!(/sarcasm)
Although many of you Mac users claim that your system is more stable than PC, in my experience, the opposite is true.
My brother bought a Mac 6 months ago for college…The HD has crashed 3 times since. He does nothing odd with it, just types reports and plays a few games. My old PC is 7 years old(Windows 3.1 baby!) and has only had 1 HD wipe…luckily I was able to rescue it(Where else would I play all my shareware?)
However, the advantage of Macs are that you can just plug something in and it works. No messing with drivers and the like.
Wrath, I don’t think you understand the inherant differences between the networking capabilities of Mac computers and PC’s. First of all, PC’s aren’t more work to maintain. It depends what OS you’re using. If you’re using 95/98/ME, it’s going to take more work because those are hybrid 16 bit/32 bit OSes. If you’re using NT/2000/Linux/Netware, you’ve got the advantage over Mac’s in a network environment. Mac OSes are in no way superior to these PC OSes (Well, maybe except Netware. Netware is just the supreme networking OS).
Mac’s and PC’s are interoperable in a network, but it requires a lot of work and knowledge of both systems to streamline and troubleshoot any problems. This is because they use different network architectures, different protocols…hell, different anything.
Mac’s more often than not make a network more cumbersome because the Network Admin will have to install various protocols on the servers in order for the Mac’s to be integrated. Unless a company has a large CG department that needs to be integrated into a corporate network, Mac’s are useless in a network. I wouldn’t go around saying IT pro’s “Lack knowledge”. It requires an immense amount of schooling and learning capabilities to understand this stuff. Of course they’re going to go to someone who knows Mac’s for assistance with a Mac…why would you do anything otherwise?
In a homogeneous Mac environment, Mac’s require less IT management because everything is basically automated. In a heterogeneous network environment, Mac’s require far more management than a PC does because they need to be made compatible with other computers.
You won’t see Mac’s become more commonplace in corporate networks until Mac’s become A)Cheaper, B) Perform as many functions as a PC, and C) Apple decides to give up being proprietary.
Now, Counterpoints:
- Floppies: Why not have them? They’re not a detriment to a system in any way, and do not rack up expenses like Zip drives do.
- Programs: There is a greater pool of software titles to choose from for PC’s, and Mac titles are generally more expensive.
- Code management: IT professionals rarely hack into computer code in Windows (IT guys deal primarily with networking), so I wouldn’t doubt if you could break into the Mac OS better than they could break into Windows.
- OS Features: There are also gobs of third party freeware progs to beef up Windows.
- Cost: Actually, the only Mac’s you’ll find that are even closely priced to a similarly equipped PC will be the iMacs, and those are little colorful turds compared to PC’s that you can get for around the same price. Apple is proprietary; proprietary = greater cost.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50205
This is why I use a Mac.
I hate both. Compared to Linux, Windows is like working in a straitjacket: You can’t do anything at the basic level. The ‘look-and-feel’ is okay, but it quickly annoys me when it interferes with the real life usage of the machine and the software. Plus, Windows is unstable. I would not trust the task of server to anything running a Microsoft product, myself.
But if Windows is a straitjacket, Macintosh is a chair you’re strapped into. You can do even less with it. Honestly, Macintosh is like a '80s throwback with even less functionality. I have breifly worked with MacOS, and it is from that my rancor stems. I tried to modify something beyond the colors my system used. I couldn’t, even with my skills. You can modify the basics well enough, but it constantly gets in the way when you try to do work on it. I graduated from cribs and playpens long ago. I don’t want my computer to replicate one.
And both are expensive, both in price and hardware requirements. The Pentium III is now the de-facto standard in the Windows world, and I’m sure an equally expensive Motorola chip is required for Macintosh crap. Not to mention the hard drive space and RAM required. The ‘Big Two’ demand specific systems before they will work. Linux works on the machine you give it to work on.
I’m a Linux partisan. I like being able to change things around without having my hands tied. I like being able to view a command line without all that GUI getting in the way. The Real Computers, on which people do Real Work, are Linuxes. Everything else is just a toy.
Perchance, could you explain what “real” computers are? Also, please define “real” work. Most people out there in the “real” world are able to do “real” work without Linux. (Don’t get me wrong, Linux kicks butt.) Many, many thousands of people working in the “multimedia” industry do it everyday, and quite competently, I might add. That is why we use “software”, another new fangled concept that lets people work quickly, effeciently, and focus on their jobs as opposed to learning UNIX first.
Derleth apparently thinks people like Peter Gabriel don’t do “real” work. (Gabriel uses a Mac.)
This is news to me.
Actually, that isn’t exactly correct, but your not wrong either. You CAN do server-side intergration, or to intergrate Mac’s on networks now you simply need to install software on the Mac (like DAVE)…boom, your done.
The ol’ networking excuse isn’t valid with today’s technology.
You have to give SOME credit where credit is due. Mac’s are INSANELY flexible because of the environment they have to operate in…the PC world. That is why they are easily set-up in PC exclusive networks…that is also why Windows emulators exist like VirtualPC…with that little puppy, I can run ANY PC software on a Mac. C’mon…that’s purdy cool.
yeah…what yosemitebabe said, too. That flash-in-the-pan gabriel dressin up like flowers and singing about monkeys.
I think the best thing about PCs are their price. You can put together your own 800 Mhz, 128 megs of RAM, 30-gig HD, etc. etc. for less than a grand. For a Mac… well…
A Mac is the Mercedes of computers. Don’t get one unless you expect to be doing heavy-duty work for a long time. This can result in you sinking in thousands of dollars into the machine… but if you need it, it’s well worth it.
Although I AM bugged by those one-button mice…
Actually that is not as true as you think, when I was running a Computer Services Dept. at a Kinko’s I had a much worse problem with freelance designers bringing in disks infected with autostart viruses than I did PC user’s bringing in other viruses. My favorite of the two depends on which day you ask me and which ones has pissed me off most recently. I really like the right click stuff on PC, but I like the interface on the MAc’s too. Like I said it really depends on which day you ask me. Later…
Two points…
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Any “PeeCeer” worth his or her salt has no trouble with viruses (case in point: me :))
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It’s not that Mac “pros” barely bat an eye, it’s that they say “Viruses? What are those?”
(Note to the facetiously-impaired: This post not to be taken seriously)
Hmmph…slightly trivial? petty? This is the stuff that ROCKS the GODS. This cleaved Valhalla! This is the boat you cross the river Styx in. This is the bullet in the gun. You are the trigger.
Oh, heck, who am I kiddin?
blastfurnace is correct. Integrating Macs into a hybrid network is not much of a headache. Most modern PC networks are NetBIOS over TCP. If for some reason the IT folks are apoplectic about AppleTalk packets polluting their pristine hubs and routers, the Macs in the network can switch over to NetBIOS over TCP (DAVE) and turn off AppleTalk.
What I’ve seen most often in actual practice is a network where NT Servers are set up with “Services for Macintosh” installed and a few volumes are shared with both protocols. Serious Mac geeks run both protocols so as to have no barriers to access on the basis of platforms, and so that they can copy files to or from a PC workstation directly instead of using the server as an intermediary. I installed NT Server on Virtual PC and installed Services for Macintosh and found it uncomplicated, certainly no worse than setting up any other service on NT.
In small backwater offices where the predominant networking is peer to peer NetBEUI, the Mac user can install a NetBEUI protocol stack now and participate as an equal there as well.
In graphics shops and printing shops and other places where the PC is the unusual box in a sea of Macs, Miramar’s MacLan does a nice and uncomplicated job of putting an AppleTalk stack on Win9x/ME or NT/2K.