I, a long-time PC user, find the Mac interface confusing when multitasking. This probably comes from me being more familiar with PCs, but I absolutely loathe the fact that clicking the “close” button in the right corner of a Mac window does not close the program. “Oh, I get it, that’s a minimize button.” Bastards. It should be a standard–close the damn program.
I do not like not knowing how many programs I’ve opened–the Mac finder is not my friend. I open a program, try to close it with the inconvenient not close button, then continue working, only to get a message that I should close more programs to free up memory. Damn it, I did! Oh, but not with the Quit command. Sucks. For me, the idea that the menu bar present at the top of a Mac screen should look nearly identical whether a program is open or not is not intuitive–I like the separate windows clueing me in that this is a program, and this is a desktop.
And don’t get me started about the one mouse button. Ick.
Pretty machines in pretty colors, but for my money, I’ll take my Dell any day.
In general, if you are going to promote the idea that software programmers should adhere to existing standards, it is only reasonable and fair to acknowledge that the Mac GUI was there first, and the Windows GUI has confused you by exposing you to a nonstandard interface. The close window or close document button clearly belongs on the LEFT. The buttons on the RIGHT are for window size controls: toggling between zoomed and maximized, or hiding/showing window contents (“windowshade”). When you are finished with a given application, you quit it with Command-Q or selecting Quit from the File menu. And running applications should have no visible windows except those of their open documents, because it is useful and often necessary to see the open documents of other applictions, which is difficult if your application itself were to do something annoying like draw its own opaque window.
But really I have no objections if you want to work like that, although I think it is rather silly. As long as I don’t have to, that is!
I haven’t experienced any realy clumsiness when I was using my friend’s PowerMac. I found the OS to be rather intuitive when I was using it (But the damn single button mouse without the middle scroll-ball kept pissing me off). I think it was OS 8, but I’m not sure exactly. He wants to get OS X, which should be much better.
He also has a PC for when he wants to go online (For some reason his cable modem doesn’t like his Mac, and it crashes quite often when he’s online). He also uses his PC for programming. While the Mac compiles faster, the programming capabilities on a PC are far more versatile (According to him).
I also have a die-hard Mac friend who is quite illogical in his statements. His only argument he has is “Well, the G4 is a supercomputer!”. I don’t argue that with him, because I admire the G4 (I’d kill to pair a G4 with my GeForce 2 Drool). Good thing Nvidia is building graphics cards for Macs soon, then you guys won’t be stuck with crappy ATI cards (ATI sucks).
I was a long-time (well, long enough) PC user when I got my first little PowerMac. For about a week I was not so sure about this Finder thing, and the wierd square in the left upper corner that closed (but didn’t really close) a window. But I quickly adjusted. And I learned to love the Command-Q function, I use it (as much as I can) on Windows as well now. I am not saying that you are not entitled to feel frustrated with the Mac OS - if you don’t like it, you don’t like it. No biggie. But personally, I didn’t find it to be that much of an adjustment. (That was probably because I decided to buy an old Mac, and was motivated to adjust!) And adjust I did. I love my Macs! (I have two now.)
AHunter3,
You took the words right out of my mouth on this one. Not only do I agree with what you said, but I would also like to point out it isn’t that exceedingly difficult to use BOTH of the OS’s proficiently. It seems many of these hardcore PC users are easily able to move between a DOS prompt, a Linux GUI and Windows without problems, but the Mac OS just seems to blow them away. There certainly are differences…I personally find the Mac OS more intuitive, but I spend 12 hours a day on a PC and really don’t find it difficult to move between the two. And trust me, I ain’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.
I’ve heard a lot of pro-PC posters (say that 10 times quickly) complain that Mac users (ie. professionals who use Macs) don’t want to learn Windows. It seems to be the opposite, at least in this forum.
I can finally throw my 2 cents in! OK I work in a college computer lab that houses both Macs and PCs. Which do you think get’s used more? The PC. Which one would I recommend for the people who don’t know anything about computers? The PC. Which one would I use myself? The Mac. We have about 40+ PC’s in here and only about 18 Macs. No one ever freakin’ uses the Mac’s and it kills me because they are much more reliable. Don’t get me wrong I’m not bashing the PC because that is what I own and use and I am used to. Now my PC is rather reliable actually I’ve had it about 2 months now and I think it has frozen twice, although as long as I have worked here (4 months) I’ve never had a Mac freeze up on me. Personally I’d probably go with the PC just because it is what I’m used to using. I realize that the Macs are just as good if not better in certain areas but PCs have their advantages (i.e. stupid college kids who don’t know how to even type in an internet address). Oh the stories I could tell about this job…
Monster, Thanks for educating me a little about networking. I will be the first to admit I don’t know much about the PeeCee side there, but I only have to say that here, in the puny office where I work, they have a network guy on call for the NT Server, but we in the Graphics dept need no IT pros to handle our network becuase it’s so simple and it always works. It’s gone down twice in six months (requiring only a restart), while the PeeCee network has been down 5 times in the same period and has had 3 Melissa-type viruses to deal with.
The points I offered were not to blast the PeeCee but to counter what has been said to nake the Mac look bad. To reiterate, Mac users have no need for floppies (they can’t hold a simple Quark doc with graphics), Software titles most certainly are NOT more expensive than their PeeCee counterparts (in fact they are the SAME PRICE), that hacking and enhancing the system can be done simply and easily, and the Macs themselves are not really more expensive (feature for feature, mind you, in both hardware and system software).
It’s amazing that people will either talk out of ignorance or tell a boldfaced lie when saying why “Macs suck,” and for the reasons I stated, I believe these people have a vested interest in laying waste to Apple. What else could possibly be the reason?
This is the kind of ignorance I’m talking about that Mac users face.
Derleth, what do you do with your Linux? Those that use Mac do more with them than you could possibly imagine. Terminator 2’s special effects come to mind. I shall find more examples if you wish, but c’mon man, in what way does the OS “get in your way?” The rest of the Mac community is quite productive with it.
Well, I haven’t used Macs much since grade school, but as most of you Mac users seem to prefer that we PC users list the good points about PCs, I’ll just do that. Feel free to inform me of the Mac equivalent to the various things that I may mention (at which point, I’ll probably try them out on my roommate’s Mac laptop - which he doesn’t actually use, favoring his PC).
Interface Issues:
Seeing all the programs that I have running and seeing all their windows at once. I understand that this can be done with Macs with 3rd party software, but the issue here is between standard interfaces for the two systems (note that I am considering Win9x as the standard interface, sorry you Linux people). I don’t want to have to click on a menu to see the programs I have running.
The Start Menu. This is something I thought I’d hate when I first made the switch from Win 3.1 to 95. But now I find that it is by far the easiest way I’ve seen to get to programs. In general, I like being able to separate the actual locations of programs from where I need to go to run them. The only way I know how to run Mac programs is to navigate through the hard drive to get to the appropriate executable.
The right mouse button. Boy do I love context sensitive menus. I use them constantly and without fail.
The shortcut keys. I like being able to do the following to go to the Straight Dope webpage:
window key + R
type www.str (at which point Windows fills in aightdope.com for me)
hit enter, et voila, Internet Explorer pops up, already loading the Straight Dope.
Application Issues:
Games. I don’t think I need to do any more explaining on this one.
More applications. I know people say that most widely used applications are available on both platforms. But even then, there are innumerable small programs that I use that aren’t available for Macs.
Programming. I am a programmer by trade. I find that PCs, in general, are much easier to program on and for. For example, recently I’ve been doing some OpenGL programming. And as a windowing system, I’ve been using GLUT. Not the best one out there, but its very easy to learn, and good to use in my situation, as it allows me to concentrate on learning OpenGL. GLUT, unfortunately, is not available for Macs.
Hardware Issues:
All other things notwithstanding, these alone are enough to make me a PC user.
Price. By not being locked in to one, and only one, hardware manufacturer, prices in the PC market get driven down to nearly cost in a lot of cases. This makes putting together a great PC system a very economical endeavor. Even if you go to pre-built machines (Dell, Compaq and the like), you are apt to get great prices.
Flexibility. There are a multitude of options with PC hardware. I love the ability I have to mix and match components with ease to get exactly the system I want. And upgrading is a snap. New video card that I must have? No problem. Entirely new kind of chip? No problem. I can replace any part of my computer, and still have the rest work fine.
Performance. As far as I know, there’s no comparison. PCs have Athlon and Intel vying for the title of performance king, which will push PC speeds up to 2GHz by the middle of next year. The best consumer grade video cards are only available for PCs.
On the whole, Macs certainly have nice specs and features. But for a similar price, you can put together a PC system that will blow it out of the water, performance-wise.
Well, thats my rant on why I like PCs, and why I’ll probably continue to like them as long as they’re around.
You DO see all windows of all open apps (multi-tasking a.k.a. multifinder, built in). You do not see a floating palette or menubar of the apps, but the App pull down menu does the same thing.
The Apple Menu is the equivalent of the Start menu, is fully customizable and, I believe, the basis for Windows’ Start menu.
There is no need for a right mouse button on a Mac. Whatever you do with it is accomplished by double clicks, “click and a half” or keyboard use. Before you go nuts on this, remember you had to learn the right mouse button just as a Mac user had to learn the single mouse… in other words, no advantage but for personal preference. If you are so inclined, tablets, trackballs and 3-button mice are available.
Mac is loaded with keyboard shortcuts, and most are determined by the application, not the OS. I use IE as well, and thanks to bookmarks, I can type http://www.st and get here as well.
Apps
You are right. But, there are few major titles that aren’t on both.
You are right. But, there are few major titles that aren’t on both. You PeeCeers make it sound like we can’t get things done.
I don’t know. But I’m a graphics pro, which many of us are. However, OpenGL is fully integrated. GLUT may not be available, but CodeWarrior is. You make it sound like programming on a Mac can’t be done, and “easier” is a subjective term. Of course, if there weren’t any programming apps, I wouldn’t be typing this.
Hardware
Yes, the Mac for the most part is a premium product, with more built-in features that you ultimately pay for. But you wanted a feature-for-feature comparison, didn’t you? If you buy your stripped-down PeeCee you wont have the built-in audio, video, QuickTime, voice recognition, etc… But we Mac zealots prefer to think our Mac as the Mercedes Benz to your PeeCee Yugo.
There isn’t a single piece of hardware you can name that isn’t already immediately availble for the Mac, with plug-and-play capability. If it specifically doesn’t exist, something close to it does. Everything you say about the PeeCee add-ons is true for Mac.
You obviously haven’t used a G4 Mac. And you are wrong about video cards. Hint: Macs are on the PCI bus, too, and USB and FireWire.
Point is, the only valid reason, really, is that it’s a matter of personal preference, isn’t it? Mac users in general are quite happy and productive living alongside the PeeCee folks.
Thank you for the responses, Wrath. I feel like I should respond to them in kind, to clear up some misconceptions.
Thats just the point. As a personal preference, I dislike having to pull down a menu to see open applications
Ah. Thank you. This is something I’ve missed in my Mac uses. I just don’t use that menu bar much.
Yes, you are right. Again, though, personal preference leads me to prefer right mouse clicks. And again, the dispute here isn’t about third party add ons, its about the basics that you get in a Mac system vs. a Wintel system.
I like that my keyboard shortcuts are defined by the OS (at least some of them). Also, when I hit window + R, it doesn’t require that IE be up and running. It opens the run dialog, and thanks to integration, the auto complete fills in from IE’s Address menu as well. I can also use the window + R to telnet to my school’s servers to check my email, by typing window + R and “tel” at which point, I get the rest of the command.
True, but, with the notable exception of Quake 3, if a Mac port is available, it doesn’t get released until well after the PC version.
I’m not trying to make it seem like you don’t get stuff done. I’m just saying that there are many applications that I use regularly that aren’t available on Mac. I’m sure I could get by without them if I chose to use a Mac. But why do that, when I can use my PC?
Again, I’m not saying that you can’t program on a Mac. I just find it much easier to do so on a PC. Codewarrior is nice, but there are many IDEs which I use (the two that come to mind are Visual C++ and Borlands JBuilder) which I can’t find for Mac. Just to clear up a possible misconception, GLUT isn’t an IDE. It is a cross-platform windowing system, that takes the window management out of the hands of the programmers. Except cross-platform doesn’t include Macs.
Not true. I can buy my “stripped down” PC and still have a SoundBlaster Live soundcard, a GeForce2 MX, and a nice 100 dollar voice recognition app. I think a more accurate representation of PCs would be a Civic. Cheap base price, but you can soup it up all to hell, and it will outperform a Benz while still costing less.
GeForce2 Ultra. Or GeForce2. Or even a GeForce256. You have to go back a few generations of PC hardware to reach a point where there’s an equivalent in Mac hardware.
You are right, I haven’t used a G4 Mac. But I’m pretty sure I’m not wrong about the video cards.
In a related sidebar, it’s worth mentioning that many Mac users have regular experience with Windows’ PCs, having been forced to use them at one point or another. Whereas most Windows users have little or no exposure to Macs, or only in unfavorable situations (a busted-up demo model that’s been ignored in the back of Circuit City, for instance). At least when a Mac user talks about what he doesn’t like in Windows, he’s speaking from actual experience.
Well, let’s be fair – the current MacOS has been showing its age (what, no preemptive multitasking?). MacOS X is {i]long* overdue.
I got a new iMac earlier this year, and bought a USB floppy drive “just in case”. I think I’ve used it a total of three times since I got it.
This is where the “ease of maintenance” of the Mac comes into play. Most Mac owners will wantonly install all sorts of screen savers, GUI enhancements, digital gadgets, and what-have-you without a second thought – because they know if something goes wrong, it’s very easy to toss the new extension or program into the Trash and be done with it. In contrast, installing new software on Windows is always a dangerous; you neveer know if the new program is going to bring down the entire system, or if the Uninstaller will actually work as advertised.
Don’t forget to factor in the total cost of ownership. It does little good to save $300 on a PC over a Mac if you have to replace the PC two years later. Or if you’re paying someone $75/hour to repair your PC.
Yeah. You’re right. But I have to tell you… I got an accidental glimpse of OS X (installed the server version by mistake recently), and I can say only this: you ain’t gonna like it. A Mac dealer friend said he knows of only 3 people who have looked at OS X, and I’m one of them. None of us are using it.
I’ve had a copy of the Public Beta of OS X for some time now. If I forget that it is supposed to be the next iteration of the MacOS and instead think of it as a flavor of Unix (which it is), it isn’t bad at all. Compares VERY favorably to Linux with Gnome or KDE. (Yes, you can still open a command line window and ls to your heart’s content, it really IS a Unix, trust me on this). Competitive with Windows GUI as far as I’m concerned. Not on par with the existing MacOS, not to mention that all those lovely Extensions and Control Panels that I’ve carefully located and stored up to customize it aren’t there yet for X.
I think MacOS X can really kick some arse in the desktop computer arena once the initial hurdles of launching a(ny) new OS are overcome. Yes, it’s a radical departure from the traditional MacOS, but that’s the whole point – this is not another incremental upgrade to System/Finder 1.0 from 1984, but a totally new beast that just happens to share the same name (and some rather spiffy backwards-compatable tricks, too).
The loudest complaints I’ve heard against MacOS X are from the long-term Mac users who expect it to be “more of the same”; but those who see it as a whole new beginning are generally enthusiastic.
I’ve read the article, and frankly, I could have written a better, more factually honest article. For example, Jaffe writes: “At $15 a share, Apple is now 80% off the 52-week high of $75.18 it reached in March”, neglecting to mention Apple’s stock split back in September.
Now, I’m not an investor. I’m not in the technology industry. I’m not even a tech journalist, like Jaffe is. But I knew about the stock split. Knew about it months ago, when it happened. I’m just a kid outta college with a degree in a social-sciences field who plays with her computer all day. Jaffe, on the other hand, is a paid technology writer. He has no excuse for not knowing or researching his stuff.
It’s this kind of coverage in the media that adds to the burden of being a Mac user. Admittedly, this is an extreme example of bad press, but then again, months and months of negative casting can have the same damaging effect: eventually, people will start to believe this trash. Really, now: why is it printed if it isn’t the truth?
And that’s what sickens me most about Jaffe’s article. He did a half-ass job of gathering the facts. He’s said nothing that hasn’t been said before, and he’s said nothing that hasn’t been proven wrong before. I think it’s fairly obvious he has a strong anti-Apple bias. Yet because his article is in the pages of BusinessWeek, he has instant credibility.
One thing. When people report 52 week highs for a stock that has split, they adjust the share price for the split. For example, if it was a 2 for 1 split, they will halve the 52 week high (if it was before the split) when comparing that with the current price. This is something that all investing and business magazines do as a matter of course. For further proof, here’s the Yahoo chart of Apple’s (AAPL) activity over the past year:
You’ll notice that the split is marked by a grey arrow, and that the share price doesn’t immediately drop by 50%. This is because they adjusted the prices. You can also see on the graph that the high of 75 3/16 is with the share price adjusted for splits. Small wonder that Apple split, as an aside, since when they did, the actual (pre-split) shares were trading at around 100.
I just noticed this thread. What a joke. Only MAC people posting because only MAC people think that this is still a question!
The MAC has been a sideshow attraction since Win95 shipped.
The MAC was a pretty sweet machine back in '84, but the meantime, despite 9 versions of the OS and a switch to a new processor architecture, it’s basically only a 2nd generation GUI.
And Apple has been shooting themselves in the foot since the beginning. Nice engineering, but horrible businessmen.
Now OS/X is an interesting development. Although I have to agree with the poster who says that it really isn’t a MAC at all.
OS/X is what Linix want’s to be: a full multitasking OS with a well designed GUI sitting on top of it. I’m encouraged that the didn’t make the same fundamental mistake as the other *nix’s when going with a GUI: The started by discarding X-Windows.
And the Carbon/Cocoa compatibility to the MAC is a really sweet design. Although it’s basically a MAC version of the Win31/DOS compatibilty code in Windows NT, so it can hardly be considered an innovation. Still, it is VERY well done.
I’d like to think that OS/X will revive Apple as a company, but I’m guessing not. Die hard MAC users will hate having to ‘re-learn’ their mac. And PC heads probably won’t give it much attention since it doesn’t bring anything fundamental to the table that isn’t already in either Linux or Win2k. (Although it’s better engineered than either).
Besides, Apple just can’t seem to figure out that being closed system is the way to make sure that you will NEVER be a major player in the computer market.
There, that ought to be enough opinions to offend everyone
It’s kinda like how people in Kansas get bent out of shape about New York. What do New Yorkers think about Kansas? They don’t. They’re too busy living a real life with real people and real issues in a real city. Kansas just ain’t important.
yosemitebabe (and others) wrote
That is sincerely good; I’m glad this fills your computer needs. Please understand, though, that maybe 1% of computer users consider drawing and ripping to be their primary use of a computer. What you describe as a plethora of apps really reinforces what we PCers believe: the only apps available on macs are drawing packages. And we (rightly or wrongly) equate those to silly games.
