The Question that rages acroos the nation..PC vs. Mac

Bill H. could you be more condescending? My “drawing” is not a silly game, thank you. I am an artist, and I enjoy using my Mac to make my drawings and digital art. I think I make good drawings, and good graphics with my Mac. And I think you can be pretty insulting.

Peter Gabriel is an musician, he chooses to use a Mac. What - do you think he is just playing around with a “toy” as well? Or will you concede that he does REAL work on his Mac? If he isn’t doing REAL work, what are they paying him all that money for?

Also, you never addressed something many of us brought up: Most, or at least many of us Mac users are also Windows users. This flies in the face of your stereotype that all Mac users are the fervent faithful who refuse to see the merits of the PC. I migrated to a Mac from a PC, and I still find my PC useful. I am not bashing PCs here. I know they both have their place. And I value both, for different reasons. I don’t feel so insecure that I have to be condescending and insulting.

Tell me: do you think up these analogies on your own? Because if you do, they’re not worth the effort.

:rolleyes:

Who was the bigot again?

I’m assuming that by “joke” you meant “something that I am willing to spend my personal time trying to argue about” instead of “ha-ha”.
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Which sideshow is that? The “multi-billion dollar a year entertainment and multimedia industry platform of choice” sideshow?

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Even though this isn’t exactly true, what is wrong with that? The MacOS GUI is an intuitive and well-thought out piece of work. Simply because Microsoft can’t make up it’s mind about how it wants people to interface with the computer doesn’t make the MacOS bad. And there is simply no denying that Microsoft has borrowed an idea or two from the original MacOS GUI in 1984.

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Again, it depends what you think Apple is looking for. They never claimed they wanted world domination of the Personal Computer market. Apple has always stood for quality over quantity.

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I’m not sure I understand this concept. How is this OS not a Mac?

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Um…actually Darwin is *BSD based.

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I think you have some valid points here. However, I don’t think Apple needs “reviving”. If you look at Technology stocks in general, everything is cooling off. Apple consitently fluxuates in this manner after a major growth, as do most Tech companies. I agree wholeheartedly that PC users won’t pay attention to OSX…although it has less to do with innovation and more to do with stubborn bias.

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It is ludicrous to claim Apple isn’t a “major player” in the computer market. Again, a quality over quantity approach. They are both valid business ethics.

I mean, what do these people have against Apple? This guy is a freakin’ lunatic! You’d think that Apple personally killed his dog or something. I can’t for the life of me understand this nearly rabid hatred. It cannot be because Apple isn’t a major player, or that “Mac’s Suck”. Yeesh!

Stepping away from this issue to look more widely. In what situations do people become mean and hateful for no apparent reason? Fear? Misunderstanding? Ignorance? These aren’t accusations, I’m just curious. What inspires this fear of Apple.

I don’t think PC defenders so much hate Apple as certain Apple customers, who feel the need to claim that Macs are superior to PCs in ways that they aren’t, who claim that certain things are impossible on a PC which are easily done on a Mac (in the thread that started this one I was told that any serious CGI application would be guaranteed to lock up a PC). I know that Macs are just as good at certain things as a PC, in some cases perhaps marginally beter, but to most computer afficianados, people who actually know and care about how they work, PCs are favored because of their versatility, ease of customization, and price. Most of the time these Mac vs. PC debates start when a Mac user starts making outlandish claims about the superiority of Macs, the PC user defends their platform of choice, and then next thing you know they are a PC zealot who has an irrational hate of Macs.

Here’s an example - I asked what software I would want for doing home recording on my PC - I stated that I had a PC quite clearly. After a few helpful posts, I got this…

At THIS point I pointed out that I was anti-Mac, and I was bombarded with people saying PCs are worthless for what I wanted to do, even though a professional musician has stated that he uses PCs for recording and has no problems with it.

It appears it’s not the PC users who are insistent on attacking other platforms.

I’m going to make a little confession here. I just love to stir the pot. I like to find people that are just a bit too edgy on some subject, then give 'em a little tug and watch 'em spin. Libertarians are a favorite victim. Mac lovers a close second.

Though I stand by the guts of what I’ve said in this thread, I apologize if the tone has been offending, and I especially apologize to yosemitebabe, whom I’m sure is an intelligent computer user and a fine worker in a fine field.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Badtz Maru *
Here’s an example - I asked what software I would want for doing home recording on my PC - I stated that I had a PC quite clearly. After a few helpful posts, I got this…
/QUOTE]

As a side note. Vegas Pro (Or Vegas Video) from Sonic Foundry is far and away the best software-only home recording software on the PC or Mac.

There are some really nice hardware/software combos for the Mac that cost about 10 times as much, but other than that,
there really is no competition.

Sonic Foundry is the company that brought us ACID, which is just the perfect tool if you use loops at all in your music creation. Once again, a PC only product.

tj

One: I can’t keep reading this because until now Tejota was my hero. It’s heartbreaking to know he’s a minion of Billgatus of Borg’s.

Two: McDonald’s is, bymany orders of magnitude, the most common and popular burger maker on the planet. Would * anyone * even * try * to argue that they are the ** best ** burgers?

I rest my case, and my Mac.

stoid

You missed my point entirely. I have the greatest respect for the Mac as a piece of engineering. Of course, it’s a bit dated now, but good engineering wears well.

However, I have a fair amount of contempt for Apple as a business. They’ve made some incredibly stupid decisions that basically marginalize their product. Good enginering isn’t enough to make a company fly. In the computer world you ALSO have to pay attention to network effects.

Anyone who writes software for the Mac only is automatically discarding 90% of the software buying market as potential customers.

Conversely, anyone who writes for the PC only is ignoring only 10%. Only the largest companies are willing to double their effort to pick up another 10% revenue. Those that do will get back extreme loyalty, so maybe it works out to even more than 10% additional revenue, but double the work for 20% more money still doesn’t make a lot of business sense.

Do you have any idea how HARD it is to run a small business using ONLY Macs? Unless you want to do ALL of the support yourself, you are basically stuck. In many markets there simply aren’t any Mac knowledgeable sys admins available.

I could go on, but basically it comes down to this. If you are in business you NEED to use PC’s in some capacity. It’s possible to use Mac’s cost effectively in some, but not all of the tasks in a small business. This is entirely Apple’s fault, they have chosen a business model where they get 60 or 70% of All Mac revenue, but at the cost of having the Mac be a minor player in the computer game.

No one PC vendor gets anywhere near that market share, but the largest 5 of them are EACH ONE bigger than Apple.

That, my friends, is the economics of netorks effects. Good engineering killed by mediocre engineering and a good business model.

Note that this has nothing at all to do with Microsoft, In any scenario where you have free competition among hardware vendors that are all capable of running the same software, you get the same effect. If Windows is replaced by Linux, the result is the same. Apple can only hope to compete of they open up their architecture and let someone else play on the hardware side.

Yes, they will earn a smaller percentage, but the pie will be much bigger.

I’ve been in computers since before the PC or Mac was even invented. I’ve seen lots and lots of really cool engineering killed by bad marketing, or bad business models. Apple, is probably the largest and clearest example, but there are hundreds of others out there. (or used to be :wink:

I’d love to see the Mac become the dominant computer out there, because if it doesn’t eventually it will simply cease to be. What I actually see happening is that Jobs is turning the Mac into the NEXT, and we all know what a success THAT was.

tj

There’s enough truth to that to have cost us a few software titles over the years.

But suppose you have a good solid idea for a s/w product. You are aware that it will take a couple of production cycles and programming iterations before it loses its rough edges. You could use some income and would prefer not to have to spend it all immediately on advertising and distribution and channel stuffing. You are aware that tossing your first-iteration product out into the shark-infested waters of the intensely competitive PC software world could mean the rapid appearance of clonelike competitors with bigger marketing budgets if it appears that your solid good idea has good market potential.

It occurs to you, perhaps, to develop your product first for a smaller market where the competition is lighter and where, if you can get an ad placed in a small handful of catalogs and reviewed in the new products columns of a couple of magazines, you’ve attained an impressive amount of saturation.

It occurs to you that the smaller niche markets are often considerably more loyal, especially if your product was developed for them first, and it never hurts to start off with a loyal customer base and then expand into more competitive territory.

It occurred to Microsoft, which honed Microsoft Word and Excel on the Macintosh–although they had a DOS version of each, they chose to ignore the low market share in DOS (many DOS users never heard of them) and instead concentrate on product refinement. When they released Word and Excel for Windows, they were winning entries not merely because they ran with a Windows GUI (indeed, Windows 3.x needed a refined and usable Excel and Word more than vice versa), but because they had been honed. On the Mac, Excel users were at version 4 and Word users were on version 5.

Who knows? Someday you Windows users may even get Toast! :smiley:

Yep. But some people don’t mind, and write Mac-only software anyway, bless their hearts.

I think you’re committing a logical fallacy here – you’re concluding that, because the Mac has a smaller total number of software titles than that which exists on the PC, then the Mac has a smaller application type than exists for the PC. E.g., it sounds like you’re suggesting that the Mac doesn’t have bookkeeping or database or source control applications, merely because of its smaller user pool.

This conclusion, needless to say, falls flat on its face when one actually looks at the software available – there are Mac-specific programs to perform typical business operations. What’s missing in the Mac market might be a larger variety of programs, but that’s not the same as saying that there aren’t any.

To put it in laymen’s terms, there may be 15 different word processors for Windows and only 5 different word processors for the Mac, but that’s not the same as saying that there are no word processors for the Mac. And given that you can get Microsoft Office for both platforms, the difference becomes even more trivial.

You’re implying that it’s very difficult. Do you have a cite?

True. But then, one also has to factor in how much easier it is to maintain a Mac than it is to maintain a Windows PC, and the Mac’s historically higher reliability rate.

True, though I highly doubt this will happen any time soon – Microsoft’s business model is largely contingent on defending their existing OS market, to protect those network effects you were talking about.

[QUOTEI’d love to see the Mac become the dominant computer out there, because if it doesn’t eventually it will simply cease to be. What I actually see happening is that Jobs is turning the Mac into the NEXT, and we all know what a success THAT was.[/QUOTE]

From a technological POV, the NeXT was really cool – it was the high price of the boxes ($10,000, IIRC) that killed it. But if Apple makes it so you really can run NeXTSTEP/MacOS X on a $799 iMac, that’s a whole different ball game…

I really feel the need to point out to the anti-Mac folks, notably Bill H and tejota of late, that when you speak of Mac versus PeeCee, you are pitting 1 company versus an entire industry.

Not a major player? What other single computer manufacturer is? Dell and Compaq do have impressive market shares, but compare them to Apple, not the entire industry please. Last I read Apple had over 84 million customers worldwide (several years ago). What’s not “major” about that?

And when you speak of toys, let’s not forget which platform eveyone seems to agree is best for games, hm? And check out the multi-billion dollar ad agencies on Madison Avenue (and elsewhere in the country) who use Macs professionally to produce for their clients.

Continuing my hijack of this thread… :slight_smile:

Yeah! Steve Jobs did it! And Woz! They sicced Clarus the Dogcow on it!

I think Jaffe’s just getting his jollies kicking at Apple after it showed a sign of weakness. He’s ignorant, as the MacFixit commentary pointed out, but I’m not sure if he’s willfully so. You do expect better from a mag like BW, that’s for sure.

Badtz Maru:

This hasn’t been my experience. This thread, one of the ones I linked to on page one, shows how typical Mac vs. PC debates go for me. It was in GQ and started out well enough, until a PC user started slamming Macs. It ended up here in GD. It had potential for the Pit.

Aficionados include people such as you and I and the other posters here, don’t they?

I’m kind of insulted by this. Do you mean to say that the users here who have spoke highly of or defended the Mac don’t know what they’re talking about? Or that they don’t care about their work?

Frankly, I don’t know why this surprised you. I just read through that thread, and you described yourself as “fervently anti-Mac”. Can you see how that will be taken as the first punch thrown, so to speak? Furthermore, how can you now say that “it’s not the PC users who are insistent on attacking other platforms”? You did just that.

If your thread was hijacked into a Mac vs. PCs debate, you (unintentionally) helped start it.

Tejota

I understand your disdain for Apple’s (mis)management. Bash Apple around for a while, and I may end up agreeing with you completely. What I don’t understand is your disdain for the Mac itself and for Mac users. How is the way Apple run a flaw of the OS?

I really miss the coexistence of the Commodore Amiga.

By all rights it should still be around. Were it not for a marketing uh <ahem> “strategy” on the part of Commodore that makes the worst moves by Apple in the last 25 years look like inspired genius, it would be. And when there were still three platforms, fewer PC users were quite so inclined to act as if Apple had done something outstandingly stupid and unprecedented by daring to continue to market a different computer architecture and operating system. With only one completely separate commercially available option to the WinTel box to be seen, PC users have gotten a lot worse about acting as if it were undeniably and obviously a postulate carved in stone that all computers should be the same.

It also helped to have Amiga partisans around. Compared to them, Mac Evangelistas are timid and cautious and exquisitely polite and rational creatures, indeed! (This is still so, it’s just that they are such endangered species nowadays that you don’t run across them much any more). But seriously, it helped to be able to refer to them while explaining what it is like to be a devotee of a minority platform that doesn’t get adequate respect for its capabilities, and how it feels when some more mainstream (but more limited) platform’s users act like they’ve been knighted for brilliant platform choice when that platform finally acquires some feature or characteristic that THEIR platform has had for years.

This is not to say that I wish I was using an Amiga. Not even an Amiga with modern memory and processor and video and peripheral component performance and availability. I like my Mac and I never warmed up to the AmigaOS, although I have enough curiosity about alternatives to have an emulator on my PowerBook.

Anyway: once there were dozens of disparate platforms. Natural selection of a silicon sort did away with many that we are better off without, no doubt about it. But (to continue the evolutionary motif) a die-off that leaves only one viable platform is NOT a healthy development. Jerry Pournelle once did a column on “what if Apple had never existed” and described the modern PC in that hypothetical world as a highly successful box that did 8-bit addressing at 600 MHz and powered DOS version 13.1 which could now address up to 16 MB of contiguous RAM although no one was writing any software that made use of it yet. Monitors this year could hold a record-breaking 116 lines of text in Hercules Pro mode.

I should acknowledge that one could with equal accuracy writ a column describing a world in which Microsoft and Intel had never existed, where Apple had become the Disney of computers and every year released a new color of Macintosh, and this year’s Mac ran at 160 MHz and could run 4 different programs concurrently as long as only one was trying to do anything that required CPU cycles. For the first time this year, you can hook up to THREE monitors to expand your desktop area three times above the maximum single monitor resolution of 600 x 400 pixels.

My point, should it remain opaque, is that competition and alternatives keeps the industry hopping. And many heartfelt welcomes and best wishes to Linux and Transmeta. May you kick our asses and surprise us often and force us to innovate to stay in the game.

Both of us.

I think telling someone they need a new computer in the context of that thread counts as the first punch. If someone posted ‘What are some good games for the Mac?’ and I had stuck my nose in to say ‘First thing you need to buy is a PC, you can’t play games on a Mac’, how would that have been interpreted? True, I threw a lot of punches back, but it’s not my fault that the Mac side didn’t have much negative they could say about PCs when challenged.

precisely my point. Apple has chosen NOT to let an industry develop for the Mac architecture. They want all of the profits for themselves. So of course, in the long run, they will lose because they simply can’t compete against the PC industry without becoming one themselves.

As I said, good technology, bad business model.

tj

Okay, I was on ICQ with Ms. AudreyK, and she seemed to be working herself up into a Quaker-like fervor over this issue (again). Now, while I appreciate her views on this the same way I appreciate those of any repressed minority, I didn’t see the point, telling her “it seems pretty cut and dried to me.” At which point I felt as if I had to clarify/justify my position. Which I did. At length. At which point she told me I should post it. Why, I don’t know. But she can be persuasive, so here’s something of a transcript. Please forgive the length.

Okay, let me see if I have a proper understanding of this issue. One of the predominant arguments is that of the production value of one platform over another. The two main values traditionally used to measure this is speed versus quality. Some fancy schmancy economics formulae will be able to plot a point that delineates a point of an ideal balance between the two.

Based upon familiarity with the platform, including user-customization, and technical performance of the machines, the “best” machine is the one that allows the user/producer to reach the point of ideal production (calculated above) most easily, if at all. All other points are moot.

Okay, now tell me where I’m wrong/naive/misinformed.

I’m cooking my non-production oriented stuff now, BTW.

As for issues that are not concerned with productivity/economic factors, other issues come to the fore, though a similar line of thought can be followed. Namely, one must determine what he wishes to use the computer for, and which would allow him to do so the most efficiently (again, factoring in platform familiarity, etc.).

Even if it’s something as simple as web browsing and email, we can project a person’s “productivity” in terms of pertinent pages viewed and emails sent. Obviously, the computer that allows him to send his emails (say 250/month) the fastest and with the highest quality (spelling, etc.) lends itself to the same formula used before.

The pertinent web page viewing is based upon the (number of) web pages the user wishes to see and factors in such things as the ease of banishing popups (which compete with the desired web pages for viewing time), time and concentration lost as the result of a system crash, and so on. Again, similar formulas apply.

On to, human factors ->

Now, obviously, one of the most decisive factors about which computer is “best” boils down to personal preference. In this case, it is a matter of the machine’s overall utility value. Here the term utility value is used as a catch-all to measure a user’s overall satisfaction with his/her machine. It can be calculated using two variables, that of emotional satisfaction with the machine and the production it allows. If one is emotionally satisfied with the machine, an positive arbitrary value is assigned to this variable. If emotionally dissatisfied (read: upset) with it, an arbitrary negative value is assigned. Similar values are assigned to the productivity variable. The sum of the two numbers dictates the overall utility value of the machine.

Ideally, a user will have equal experience with both machines, in order to calculate the utility value of both the Mac and the PC, and the resulting difference between the two numbers dictates the preference of the user (since the values are assigned arbitrarily by the user, it is obvious that his own biases are used in the valuation).

Like I said, seems rather cut and dried…
<her> Aw, come on. You forgot to argue specs, parts, availability of parts and software, competency of management, what everyone else is using… all that stuff.

<me>Okay, fine! I know you were kidding, but I like hearing myself think. And I miss it.

The competency of management and the “it’s what everyone else is using” factors are also closely linked to one another, for the simple reason that “what everyone else is using” is often the most cost-effective alternative, especially when it comes to technical support (a greater number of technicians are going to be more familiar with the equipemtn “everyone else is using,” yielding a greater number of technicians, and usual laws of supply and demand take over).

The compentence of the management comes into play here, because management must be able to determine the company’s ability to create a higher quality (and presumably higher priced) product using more expensive tools of production. Obviously, if the higher quality product brings in revenue that outweighs the production cost (here one factors in the machines and wages of the skilled workers who will operate them), then the more expensive tool(s) of production are justified.

Summary ->

Obviously, these are all conclusions based upon the applications of tools in an environment where cost and profit meet in the usual paradigms. In the comparison between machines, removed from an environment where production is king, relative production values are not always as cut and dried as they may seem. The key argument here could quite possibly be which machine can yield the highest possible quality product, and assuming there is a plateau that only one machine can reach, then that machine is obviously superior at producing that particular product at that particular level of quality.

I could say more, but I’m tired… :stuck_out_tongue:

Tejota, my point is that Apple’s life and market share look far more stable and impressive when pitted against any other single computer maker. No, not #1 for sure, but not last on the list either.

Many of us applauded when Apple opened its architecture to cloning, but Jobs came in and wiped them out again. Good or bad, I still have quite a fine G4, and the reports of Apple’s demise have for 15 years been grossly exaggerated. Watch the highs and lows of any other single PeeCee maker and you might be shouting “Gateway is dead!” one minute and “buy Gateway stock!” the next.

And thank you AHunter for the trip down Amiga memory lane! I was weaned on Amiga before the Mac, and I miss it greatly. Commodore went on to pioneer Virtual Reality game machines, but does anyone know what they’ve been doing lately? Are they totally dead?

I’m surprise nobody mentioned Apple’s round mouse. Seriously, did all their engineers suddenly forget their ergonomics classes? And as for the G4 cube, what were they thinking, putting all the ports on the bottom?

Sometimes these guys seem to think a little too different.

I like the cube. It’s small, quiet, and non-ugly.

Too bad it’s a mac.