You literally are making up your conclusion (it started as a threatening gesture by “cavemen”) and then essentially asking people to disprove it if they don’t accept it.
The earliest I could find are those Egyptian statues, which is ancient but definitely not before the Bronze age. I don’t know what they’re about. I tried using a translation service to access the Cairo Museum’s Arabic-language website, but they didn’t seem to have (or I couldn’t seem to find) any relevant information posted online. My uninformed guess is that the pose, including the clenched fist, had some sort of religious significance. The Spanish Wikipedia entry for Carl Jung uses the picture, presumably he visited the museum, although I can’t be sure of any relevance whatsoever even after attempting to translate parts of the page. Perhaps you will find this to be a workable lead.
Telemark is correct to point out that you are working backwards, searching for evidence to support a conclusion instead of forming a conclusion that is based off the evidence. It’s not necessarily bad science, but you are prone to confirmation bias and until you find compelling evidence to support your theory, the rest of the world will likely discount it.
I suggest it evolved from Liberty’s fist holding the flagpole.
~Max
As a gesture, I suspect the clenching of fists is a natural expression of stress or anger just like bruxism, or shutting your eyes too hard to grimace. Is that what you are referring to?
I would not say that makes it a symbol. It probably contributes to its success as one, though.
~Max
“Gesture”, “expression”, “nonverbal communication”, and “symbol” are all related ideas. Remember the old instruction from standardized tests - compare and contrast. I don’t think we have to go there, or is that what we are arguing here?
If I am reading you right, I’m glad we could clarify what you are talking about.
~Max
When a fist is used to express anger, isn’t it usually in motion? (Like Snoopy cursing the Red Baron) The motionless black power salute is visually something entirely different.
I had self-expression in mind, not communication. You might clench your fist in anger or stress when nobody is around to see you, and I’m not talking about pretending like someone was there. Maybe shaking a little because you’re clenching so hard, compare with clenching of teeth or eyes.
~Max
People are asking for evidence. The only evidence that I have right now is that I have personally observed modern humans on numerous occasions, albeit mentally-disabled persons, use the raised fist gesture as a way to communicate aggression and/or assert dominance. As Orlon, may he rest in peace, would put it so succinctly when using this gesture, “I’m gonna whoop your ass!” Some of those people, not Orlon, were so mentally incapable that it strongly suggested that it was an innate behavior and not a learned gesture. It is not a really big logical leap to think some of our ancestors used the same gesture. I am not so naïve that I think this will satisfy some of the members of this board. I fully expect to be accused of “just making stuff up.” A few preliminary searches of the Internet for the raised fist gesture by ancient people was pretty much unsuccessful because of references to the modern political symbol. As I mentioned earlier, I did see a few places that mentioned the gesture in the aggressive sense in modern healthcare settings. For now (actually tomorrow or later, it’s past my bedtime) I will look for scholarly research on the closed fist gesture instead of the raised closed fist gesture and then go from there.
I don’t think this is really relevant, but in several recent news reports I have seen protesters using the raised fist as a political symbol and they are moving their fists all over the place. Contrast this to Smith and Carlos at the 1968 Olympics. They were very still and solemn.
Induction is a valid form of logical argument, although absent your personal knowledge, I question whether you are sound in assuming that these persons are “so mentally incapable” that you may rule out the possibility of it being a learned behavior. I think you may have overlooked the possibility that these people may have learned through inference instead of imitation. The clenching of fists is natural, I will admit, but raising the fist to the air as a form of communication is not. It may be possible that your patients (I assume they are patients?) could infer the meaning of that gesture based on others reaction to it.
~Max
Some of them were really, really, really mentally incapable but of course I cannot absolutely rule out that they learned it from observation.
Just so you know, “patient” is politically incorrect now. Your supposed to say “client” now. The euphemism treadmill strikes again. And this particular change in terminology started many years ago.
As did the terminology about ‘really, really, really mentally-disabled’ people. I’m not going to tell you what the accepted term is now because I have doubts about how relevant your oft repeated observations are. If they are current, you will know the acceptable terms. Mentally-disabled is not it.
As to ‘client’ being the au courant term now, instead of ‘patient’, you’re out of touch there as well. Patient is as accepted as it ever was. Emerging medical professionals will tell you that insistence on ‘client’ has declined in usage, being seen as an affectation. In any case, client and patient are synonyms, not politically correct euphemisms for one another. Lawyers have clients, doctors, nurses and dentists have patients.
Your acumen in observing and understanding the symbolism and origins in language needs defending.
I wouldn’t know about patient v. client since I work in medical, not mental. They’re patients if their records make it into our out of our offices. I would hazard a guess that it depends on the type of institution, because there’s a wide variety in the field of outpatient mental health.
~Max
I guess I am out of touch. I was talking about terms used over 30 years ago. The observations I am talking about are that old as well. Apparently, I would need to re-learn all of the proper terminology if I returned to this line of work.
Never mind about that. It appears that I am 30 years behind the times. See the previous two posts.
The euphemism treadmill marches on.
The synonym treadmill power walks on.
So, to revise your original argument, I would say that the clenched fist is a natural way to express stress and/or anger, much like clenched teeth for example, but more visible. The clenched fist is also useful when taking out one’s anger in the form of punches. I believe these attributes contributed to the success and effect of the raised fist as a political symbol.
~Max
I’ll go along with that for the most part. If you were going to use a natural gesture for nonverbal communication or as a political symbol, wouldn’t you want to put in a position where everyone could see it, such as over your head?
No, I would probably put it in front of me, shoulder level or something so it’s comfortable for my arms. In the case of fists, you’ve got plenty of alternatives like making an X across your chest with your fists on your shoulders, or the fists coming together in front of your chest, etc.
~Max