The Right to Bear Arms, Yet again

Uncle Beer, I have been nice and polite to you up to this point because you have addressed the issues without first casting aspersions on those who disagree with you. But do not fucking call me a liar.

You should know “very well” that there is a legitimate debate over the source and nature of human rights. You think rights descend from god or the natural order of the universe. Fine, that’s one p.o.v. Many other people believe that we’re all working this shit out for ourselves and that rights arise because enough people say they do and write it into law. In case there was any doubt, that’s the position I’m coming from.

In short, you are WAY out of bounds to call me a liar simply because we disagree on the source of rights.

If indeed I am calling you a liar (which I’m not sure I am, I’m merely telling you what the possible interpretations of your methods of argument in this thread happen to be), it wouldn’t be because we happen to disagree over the source of what you call “natural rights.” (By the way, I’m an atheist.) It’d be because you’ve consistenly over-represented your position; you’ve made misleading statements about the rulings of the courts (mis-statements which oddly enough consistently tend to support your position, ala Michael Belesiles); you’ve knowingly twisted the meanings of the words of other posters; you’ve obfuscated your own words more than once; you’ve engaged in logic-chopping and what appear to be deliberate misrepresentations of the positions of others. There is much here that leads me to say you are being disingenuous without bringing up a noumenon such as “natural rights.”

I’ll give you a choice though. You are either lying somewhat intelligently, or you are arguing stupidly. Your choice, counsel.

That’s quite a laundry list you have there. Would you mind providing evidence of following:
[ul][li]you’ve consistenly over-represented your position; []you’ve made misleading statements about the rulings of the courts; []you’ve knowingly twisted the meanings of the words of other posters; []you’ve obfuscated your own words more than once; []you’ve engaged in logic-chopping and what appear to be deliberate misrepresentations of the positions of others.[/ul]For the record, I absolutely deny any and all of the above. [/li]
My descriptions of the state of Second Amendment law have been consitently fair and accurate. Neither you nor any person who has posted in this thread has submitted any valid law to the contrary. The cases you submitted yourself either predated the current law and have hence been superceded by subsequent authority, or depend for their holdings on state laws rather than the U.S. Constitution. In the instance of that Iowa case for which I politely, yet vainly, requested a proper cite, it appears to be from an inferior court in a circuit that has already decided on the collective rights interpretation. Ball’s in your court (so to speak). Show the world where I’ve misrepresented the law.

I also do not believe I have misrepresented the words of another poster in this thread, with the one exception of describing Crafter_Man as caring about the state of the law–an accident which I immediately acknowledged. I have consistently responded to the actual writings of other posters. If you have evidence to the contrary, I ask you to submit it.

:rolleyes:
You know, minty, the more you talk, the more I’m convinced you shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun…

A simple question, Crafter_Man: Imagine the Second Amendment were repealed altogether, and legislation was passed banning private ownership of all firearms. Then imagine the FBI and ATF read your website, determine that you’ve got a bunch of now-illegal weapons, and show up on your doorstep with search and arrest warrants.

How do you respond?

I assume you were responding to me.
How does that make the two positions contradictory? How does “I think that the law should allow gun ownership” and “I will own a gun whether it’s legal or not” cotradict each other?

I do believe that the first statement shows a concern for the how the law effects gun ownership and a willingness to either support or change the law depending on how it comes out, and the second statement shows utter disregard for the law no matter how it rules on the subject.

Crafter_Man, you say that you would fight an unconstitutional law. What would your response be if the Supreme Court Of The United States, the people who determine what is or is not constitutional, decide against an individual right to keep and bear arms? Do you obey the law, or do you determine that you are better judge of constitutional law than SCOTUS, and rebel?

Crafter_Man: A word of advice, if I may.

Never make declaritive statements that may be used against you later.

Minty:

My first, glib response was, “How much ammo do I have?”

But on more serious reflection…

“I don’t. At least not at the address they come to collect at.”

On the dark day you posit, I will no longer be at a traceable address; nor will I use a name known to be associated with firearms, or firearms owners, in any way, shape or form.

Gotta love all those “1000 Free Hours” CDs AOL passes out. And our rather permeable border with Mexico (thank you, NAFTA, and you too, you gun grabbing, commie whore-monger William Jefferson Klinton). And Mexico’s rather econmically opportunistic enforcement of their own laws.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Spavined: get over yerself, Chicken Little. Your slippery sloped arguments are even more heavily greased than gun rights advocate’s are.

THIS ACTION IS PROOF POSITIVE that the worst fears about Attorney General Ashcroft have come true," grumbles Michael D. Barnes, President of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. “His extreme ideology on guns has now become government policy.”

The “extreme ideology” that Barnes denounces is the radical notion that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution actually means what it says. Unlike many Democratic and Republican attorneys general before him, Ashcroft holds that the Bill of Rights protects the freedom of individuals—not just abstract collectives, well-regulated militias, or the National Guard—to keep and bear arms.

As far as extremists go, Ashcroft is in good company.

Thomas Jefferson argued that “no freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” James Madison boasted about the “advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.” Alexander Hamilton wrote that “Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped.” And George Mason warned that “to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”

But for the last 63 years, following the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling in U.S. v. Miller, American jurisprudence has placed a tortured emphasis on the first half of the Second Amendment (“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,”) at the expense of the explicit meaning of the second, (“the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”). According to this interpretation, only militiamen under the direction of their state governments maintain the right to gun ownership—the rest of us have no meaningful right to self-defense whatsoever.

Enter Ashcroft, who has ventured on a noble mission to right the historical and constitutional wrongs.

In the footnotes to the briefs that Ashcroft’s Department of Justice filed last week in the cases of Haney v. U.S. and Emerson v. U.S. (links require free Adobe Acrobat Reader), Solicitor General Theodore Olson makes the case that the Second Amendment “more broadly protects the rights of individuals, including persons who are not members of any militia or engaged in active military service or training, to possess and bear their own firearms, subject to reasonable restrictions designed to prevent possession by unfit persons or to restrict the possession of types of firearms that are particularly suited to criminal misuse.”

This is radical stuff, inasmuch as it rejects an unfounded but widely accepted bit of conventional wisdom, thus returning to the letter of the Second Amendment and the original intent of those who authored it.

Among the many editorialists, gun-control activists, and politicians who were quick to denounce Ashcroft’s unorthodoxy was New York Senator Chuck Schumer. “During his confirmation hearings,” Schumer complained, “John Ashcroft made it abundantly clear that he would enforce the law as it is written, not as he’d like it to be. What happened to that pledge? It’s hard to look [at] his actions and not question whether he’s going back on his word.”

For leftists like Schumer, constitutional law is tricky business. The “right” to abortion, for example, which is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution, and which an activist judiciary only discovered in the document’s “emanations and penumbras” nearly 200 years later, is sacrosanct. The Second Amendment, on the other hand, as clear and direct as it is, doesn’t really exist. When leftists like Schumer talk about enforcing “the law as it is written,” what they really mean is enforcing their agenda as though it were constitutional law.

In the Seven Myths of Gun Control, Richard Poe neatly demonstrates how the “militiaman” understanding of the Second Amendment reflects modern left-wing values far more than it represents the framers’ original intent. In the Eighteenth Century, the term “militia” referred to all able-bodied men, who were expected to own and maintain their own weapons. The militia was considered a safeguard against the potential abuses of a centralized government and a standing national army.

“Militia,” as originally understood, was not, as gun-control advocates now claim, some variation of today’s National Guard, which is funded and armed by the federal government. The country’s founders recognized the need of an armed populace—not only as a safeguard against tyranny, but also as a way to deal with domestic unrest and run-of-the-mill thugs.

Individual rights, of course, have their limitations. Freedom of speech is not absolute, as the classic example about shouting “fire!” in a crowded theater illustrates, but permissible restrictions are narrow and few. The Second Amendment interpretation that Ashcroft has advanced is comparably conservative but flexible. The Emerson and Haney briefs that have aroused such consternation on the left actually support limitations on the right to bear arms–specifically, denying that right to an accused wife-beater and holding that machine guns don’t qualify for constitutional protection.

All that Ashcroft urges is that the Second Amendment enjoy the same deference generally afforded to the First, which may be restricted only in narrowly tailored ways to achieve a compelling state interest. In other words, the most common justifications for antigun legislation—political demagoguery and statist ideology—would no longer be sufficient.

That prospect has gun-control enthusiast terrified. Politically and legally, it would leave them completely disarmed, which is as appropriate as it is ironic. Now they know how it feels.

Chris Weinkopf is an editorial writer and columnist for the Los Angeles Daily News.

That’s a huge copyright violation, Tedster. I would strongly suggest you email the moderators and ask them to remove it. Not to mention, can’t you put together a coherent argument of your own?
Oh, and very nice attempt to avoid the question, ExTank. How 'bout you actually address the hypothetical next time? There are a couple of federal agents on your doorstep with search and arrest warrants. Assume futher, to avoid any opportunity for further weaseling, that you are inside the house, armed, and your only way out is either with or through those two agents (who, incidentally, have fully complied with knock and announce rules and are politely waiting for you to appear and surrender–no Nazi stormtroopers, these two).

What do you do? Do you go with them, or through them?

Well I will address the question, although it probably won’t happen quite like that to me, because the gov. can’t strike everywhere in the whole country on one night. Someone like myself, with connections and living in a relatively pro-gun area would have some warning, and even if I was caught unaware, other people would have resisted, so the agents would be using considerably more force, and would try to surprise their opponents.

But if I have to follow the exact scenario you present - only two agents, and they’re actually knocking, and I’m sure they actually are federal agents come to arrest me:

I’ll empty a mag thru the door, grab my already packed gear, and run for the hills. The life of a guerilla may be nasty, brutish and short, and I certainly hope it doesn’t come to that, but if I’m gonna be a fugitive for the rest of my life I may as well go all out.

Realisticaly though, there would be more of them, and they’d have the house surrounded, in which case I’d be killed or maybe captured, but with luck I’d take several of them down with me. Hopefully this would cause some of the rest to re-think their career choices…

ExTank, I can’t speak for Crafter_man, but while I appreciate your concern, how can something have a deterrent effect if no one knows about it?

Yes, technically it’s sedition, but I, and many others have already spoken our piece in many forums (which the feds are more likely to read than this one), and they haven’t come for us yet. Here’s the best link I have handy (to one of the more cool-headed and intellectual firearms forums, BTW). I can come up with many more if needed.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34976
I’m off to work, I may not have time to respond until this evening.


Molon Labe

Yay! Finally, somebody who’s got the guts to admit he’s willing to kill if democracy doesn’t work out the way he would like. Oh well, guess that’s why the job description says law enforcement. :slight_smile:

Two questions for minty green:

  1. Is nothing worth fighting for?

  2. If you were living in 1776 Boston, would have you fought the redcoats? If so, why?

What would you do, minty, if you caught a thief in your home?

“Stop! Or I’ll say ‘stop!’ again.”

Yea, that will work great…
Thieves deserve swift justice. Anyone who steals from me will be stopped, and with force if necessary. Does that answer your question?

EX TANK :
What slippery slope? The initial proposition was that the Attorney General’s position on the Second Amendment was a reversal of the Justice Department’s long standing view of the Amendment which, if accepted by the federal courts, could vitiate State and Federal firearms legislation. That is no slippery slope; this is a rational analysis of the new position. As pointed out before, constitutionally sanctioned privileges may be restricted but only on a showing that there is a compelling government interest in doing so and that the restriction is minimally intrusive of the Constitutional privilege. On the other hand, without Constitutional protection restrictive legislation needs only to pass the equal protection/due process test of a rational connection between the restriction and an evil which the government has the right to suppress. Obviously the equal protection/due process test is not very strenuous. Otherwise the State of Alabama would not get away with convicting people of consensual, husband-wife, man-woman oral copulation. The compelling interest test, however, is a bitch, as demonstrated by porn on the internet. The State of California may well be empowered to prohibit big magazine semi-automatic rifles under the rational connection standard but might well have real trouble showing a compelling interest.

In terms of the militia, the ADL site referenced above looks pretty good to me. I have enough skepticism and have done enough study to have serious doubts about claims that private gun ownership and “unorganized” private, ad hoc militias have anything to do with either the intent of the Founders or the plain language of the entire Second Amendment.

Let me suggest that the howling in the woods and general gnashing of teeth seen in this thread has much more to do with a well financed publicity campaign that sinister forces are about to swoop down and confiscate your old twelve gage that any rational projection of reality. After all, a people that can be convinced that commercial water in bottles promotes physical fitness and that electric shocks to the belly will make people look like gymnasts is a people that is not very good at critical thinking, present company, of course, excluded. My contention and my rant is that the whole damned Cold-Dead-Hands movement, and now the Department of Justice, has been bought by the firearms industry, lock, stock and barrel.

Just curious: What privileges are you referring to?

Sorry, do you have a cite for that? I know the British troops in Boston confiscated some arsenals, but I don’t believe they confiscated personal weapons.

Actually, you’re right, and I stand corrected: The British soldiers were on their way to Lexington with the goal of confiscating weapons. They didn’t succeed, of course. :wink: And you’re also correct that soldiers did confiscate “stashes of arms and munitions” before Lexington and Concord. But were these personal weapons?? At any rate, the lesson learned is quite simple: when they come for your guns, give them the bullets first.

Sure, plenty of stuff. Some things are even worth killing over. How does that lead to the conclusion that there is an inalienable human right to possess the instruments of death? To my mind, the detriments of essentially unfettered access to firearms outweigh the benefits associated with being able to commit morally justifiable homicide.

Nah, me and ExTank would have fled the country together. :smiley: Or maybe I’d have become a privateer, sacking and pillaging for the sake of the nation. That whole Valley Forge thing isn’t really my style.

When I lived in Germany, that and a baseball bat would have worked spectacularly well. Thanks to this country’s gun fetish, however, it’s fairly likely that the quasi-mythical “Intruder breaking into your home!” is living out his own personal interpretation of the Second Amendment. Given that state of affairs, it is perfectly reasonable to also own a firearm. That does not stop the state of affairs from being fundamentally fucked.