The right to own Guns!

Great Debates
141

Guns are nopt designed to kill. They are designed to eject a piece of lead at high speed. Where yo u put that lead is the users job.

Hammers are not meant to drive nails. THey are meant to hit things hard. If that is a skull, well, it is not the hammer’s fault.

And Joey, your comment on handguns v. long guns proves that you know nothing of guns. A hand gun is far, far less deadly than a shot gun. And “assault weapons” never constituted mre than 1% of all gun deaths.

This is like a guy who has never driven arguing about the safety of various cars. No credibility whatsoever.

142

Joey: nobodt doubts that a 'rogue" US military woulb be able to KILL all the gunowners who oppose them. But it si a little hard to justify your actions, when you have jsut killed a large % of your citizens and destroyed all the cities. Not much left to be “rulers” of, eh?

143

Actually, Daniel, according to an article in the most recent Scientific American, some guy in some third-world country managed to pull off a coup d’ete with only a couple hundred soldiers carrying small arms.

Apparently, individual gun owners (if somebody organizes them) can overcome an army with tanks and planes and flamethrowers, simply by being stealthy.

144

To insure that I am not marginalized as a “gun nut” let me quote a lesser known saying, “Guns don’t die, people die”, victims of gun violence die, children who play with guns die. Owning a gun is a terrible responsibility. Guns make killing another human being very quick and easy and no amount of “I’m sorry! I didn’t know it was loaded” can ever bring anybody back. Killing someone with a gun is only difficult if you think before you pull the trigger. To re-state my previous post, owning a gun puts an upper limit on the degree of horrors that could be done to me by an intruder in my own home. It also limits the number of Holocaust like horrors I could be subjected to, assuming I have the guts to put up a fight. (Note, there are some fates I consider to be worse than death.) A gun does not, however, protect me from being shot either by an intruder or someone close to me, either by accident or on purpose.

That said, I’d like to re-count another story of how my brother decided to become a gun owner. He had just bought a house in a St. Louis suburb and was lying in bed listening to the soft rain through an open window by his feet. He heard a noise outside the window. As he tried to peer out into the blackness he pressed his nose to the screen and realized he was face to face with a guy who was busy cutting through the screen. In the toughest voice he could muster (remember he was completely unarmed) he said, “get out of here or I’ll kill ya”. The burgalar turned and casually walked away. My brother’s tough talk so frightened the man that he went and robbed the house next door. My brother called the police, of course, but they never even showed up. He went out and bought a .357 magnum the next day. As far as I know he’s never had to use it.

145

Joey…

How can you say that with all the personal testimonies here that say otherwise?

To wit… Mr. Zambezi wrote:

Doesn’t seem like the gun was used to kill there.

Joe_Cool said:

Was a gun used to kill there? Nope.

Anthracite wrote:

Her posts over in the thread about Rosie O’Donnel mention several other instances where she used a gun to save herself, and not once was a gun used to kill.

If you don’t wanna hunt for the thread (I sure don’t), she also said:

Who died there?

And I, my humble lil’ self, said:

Saying that a gun is only used to kill is like saying TV is only used to emit radiation into the environment… it’s looking at the destructive qualities of the object in question and completely overlooking the constructive qualities.

146

But that’s just it! A TV is designed to emit radiation into the environment! It can serve no other purpose! If you don’t get on board and support our attempts to ban the CRT right now, all those deaths from TV cancer will be on your shoulders.

147

Death to cathode ray tubes!

148

tracer:

I see your point, but since anyone could be attacked anywhere at pratically any time, people should walk about with guns drawn like a bunch of Starsky and Hutch clones, bringing their guns to bear on any and every suspicious looking character. And if anyone gets too close, just off them, because by the time they get close enough to grab you - it’s probably too late. Arming everyone just because a small percentage of people are victims of crime is silly and in fact, precipitates some of this very crime your arming against.
As for your link: “As seen by a would-be rapist”. The problem is that this is the same view that the neighbor kid gets when he comes to collect for the paper, and the pizza delivery guy who came to the wrong house, and the minister from the Methodist church down the street, and the hundreds of legitimate visitors that this young woman has coming to the door. This kind of propaganda invites young women to harbor irrational fear and take irrational measures to defend against this fear. There are much more effective and sane methods that women can use avoid rape than sticking a gun in the face of every unknown male that knocks on the door…
Mr.Zambezi:

Thanks for clearing that up, I guess I was confused. I thought there might be some relevance to the fact that while long guns outnumber handguns by quite a large margin, handguns are responsible for a much greater percentage of deaths in this country.

This is like a guy who drives a car all day, yet claims that safety belts and air bags couldn’t possibly save lives. No common sense whatsoever.
SarumanRex:

Exactly. Two of the people who I know, that were shot in their own homes, had guns. One was sleeping in his bed, was woken by a small noise and was shot with his own gun. The other, an ex-cop, was shot while answering the door. Not being a paranoid individual he opened the door and the guy who was currently sleeping with his ex-wife shot him. Having a gun can only help if you are attacked while you have access to the gun, but since attacks are rarely well advertised, you either have to be luckily near your gun or have to carry your gun around with you all the time for it to be effective.
SPOOFE:

No. It’s weighing the impact of the destructive qualities against the constructive qualities and making an intelligent judgement about how to behave.

I have a feeling that you would find it irrational for someone, after having a bumpy flight on an airplane, vowed never to fly again. Yet you think it’s perfectly rational for that same person to go out and buy a handgun for protection after he’s frightened by some bump in the night.

149

Mr. Zambezi said:

And Joey, your comment on handguns v. long guns proves that you know nothing of guns. A hand gun is far, far less deadly than a shot gun. And “assault weapons” never constituted mre than 1% of all gun deaths.

MR. Zambezi, what leads you to think that a handgun is less deadly than a shot gun? A shot gun shoots a shell that contains tiny beads called buckshot. These beads spread out when shot. So when you hit some thing, it gets hit with spread out bb’s. In hunting, you only use a shot gun for turkey, squirrel, etc. unless it has a slug in it. A handgun shoots a single bullet, which goes straight to the target. What do you think you will be hurt more by? Spread out BB’s or a single acurate bullet? Trust me. Getting shot with a .44 magnum handgun would be far more deadly than getting shot with a 4-10 shot gun. And a shot gun really isn’t long range. A riffle is, and a riffle only uses a single bullet, and the barrel is riffle bored, which means that it has tiny little grooves that spiral around the barrel and puts spin on the bullet, which in turn keeps the bullet from coming apart. I was glad to give this little class on guns. Don’t think that I’m against guns, because I’m all for them. My point is that all guns, regardless of what type they are, should be treated with respect, because they can ALL be deadly.

150

shagadelicmysteryman, have you ever seen what a 00 buckshot load does? It’s like firing NINE 33-caliber bullets at your target. Yes, each individual shot pellet is less well-aimed and therefore has less of a chance of hitting your target than does a bullet fired from a rifled barrel. But the chance of ONE of these shot pellets hitting the target is actually GREATER, particularly if you don’t have time to aim, because the shot pattern is designed to spread out and hit anything in a narrow blast area.

Plus, a shotgun is bigger and more intimidating, and a pump-action shotgun makes a distinctive sound that might be enough to scare off a would-be intruder by itself. I’d rather use a shotgun for home defense than a handgun any day.

151

I’ve been hit twice in my life from shotgun shot. The first time the shot went through a wall which buffered it quite a bit (this was the accident with my brother, mentioned previously). The shot stung, but did not penetrate the skin. The second time was the old woman Again, I felt its sting, but the distance was sufficient to slow it down and spread it out so it didn’t penetrate. Had either time been bullets from a gun, there’s no doubt that penetration would have resulted. I didn’t bother to comment earlier, but I agree with ‘shag’ (1) bullets are more deadly than shot (ergo hundguns are more deadly than shotguns) and (2) all guns are dangerous (ergo any gun can kill).

152

Hmmm… second try - hopefully not two copies…

I’ve been hit twice in my life from shotgun shot. The first time the shot went through a wall which buffered it quite a bit (this was the accident with my brother, mentioned previously). The shot stung, but did not penetrate the skin. The second time was the old woman Again, I felt its sting, but the distance was sufficient to slow it down and spread it out so it didn’t penetrate. Had either time been bullets from a gun, there’s no doubt that penetration would have resulted. I didn’t bother to comment earlier, but I agree with ‘shag’ (1) bullets are more deadly than shot (ergo hundguns are more deadly than shotguns) and (2) all guns are dangerous (ergo any gun can kill).

153

OK folks. Let’s get one thing straight here: If you don;'t know anything about guns, you have no place in a debate about their merits. Since you chose to demonstrate you ignorance with such cock sure authority, I feel the need to correct you:

  1. small bb’s, say about a size 8 or 10, is know as BIRDSHOT becasue it is used on birds.
  2. Buckshot is very large. you can have anywhere from 15 to 4 of these slugs in a given shell.
  3. A shotgun can stick these 4-15 slugs in you up to about 20 yards.
  4. you don’t have to have much aim to take someone out with buckshot note: the call it BUCKSHOT because you can use it to kill BUCKS.
  5. Shotguns come in different sizes. A 10 guage will cut you in half at 15 feet even with birdshot.
  6. a shotgun can easily be cut down to about 12 inces long and easily concealed.
  7. shotguns come in semi-auto form. put in 0 buck and you have 5-7 shots for a total of about 70 projectiles.

Handguns, as a weapon are rotten. they are hard to aim, relatively weak and are prone to the effects of target panic. They have only one advantage: they are small.

THis is what terrifies me. People who know nothing about guns are pretending to be authorities on the matter.

These beads spread out when shot. So when you hit some thing, it gets hit with spread out bb’s. In hunting, you only use a shot gun for turkey, squirrel, etc. unless it has a slug in it. A handgun shoots a single bullet, which goes straight to the target. What do you think you will be hurt more by? Spread out BB’s or a single acurate bullet? Trust me. Getting shot with a .44 magnum handgun would be far more deadly than getting shot with a 4-10 shot gun. And a shot gun really isn’t long range. A riffle is, and a riffle only uses a single bullet, and the barrel is riffle bored, which means that it has tiny little grooves that spiral around the barrel and puts spin on the bullet, which in turn keeps the bullet from coming apart. I was glad to give this little class on guns. Don’t think that I’m against guns, because I’m all for them. My point is that all guns, regardless of what type they are, should be treated with respect, because they can ALL be deadly.

**
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154

Mr.Zambezi wrote:

And this range can even be increased, if your shotgun barrel is choked and if you use a higher powered load. “Choking” refers to a constricting of the shotgun barrel near the muzzle; the more the barrel narrows down, the more slowly the shot pattern will spread out with distance.

Load power is rated in 3 general categories:
[ul]
[li]Field loads – lowest power, indicated by a short brass base;[/li][li]High-power loads – higher power, indicated by a taller brass base; and[/li][li]Magnum loads – highest power, indicated by a tall brass base and a shell that’s 1/4" longer than normal. (Normal 12-gauge shotgun shells are 2 and 3/4 inches long; 12-gauge magnum load shotgun shells are 3 inches long.)[/li][/ul]

The “gauge” of a shotgun is a very old measure, and refers to the number of lead balls the same diameter as the barrel that would weigh one pound. The higher the gauge, the narrower the shotgun barrel. 10 gauge shotguns are very large, and are normally used only in wild turkey hunting. 12 gauge is the most popular, with the smaller 20 gauge coming in second. A 410 gauge shotgun barrel isn’t “410 gauge” at all – it’s .410 inches in diameter, just like it were a handgun or rifle caliber.

155

errr, a .38 mag has one slug. A 12 guage with 0 buckshot (not birdshot) has somethig like 4-6 .38 caliber slugs. The barrel is longer and there is much, much more gunpowder in a shotgun shell.

So please, please tell me how this magic handgun that defies physics actually works. I want to patent it along with a perpetual motion machin and cold fusion.

Leapin’ lizards! If you don’t know anything about guns, don’t comment on them .

156

Mr. Zimbabwe, I do know about guns, thank you very much. I’ve been hunting since i was a wee lad at the age of 6 or so. Buckshot, which is in 4-10 shells, and from 20 to 12 gauge, will not kill a buck. You have to use a slug, commonly referred to as a pumpkin ball. A single bullet. There is never more than one slug in a shell. There may be more than one shot in a shell, but not more than one slug. And what the hell makes you think that you’re such an expert on guns. What’d you do, get a degree in college? And calling handguns realatively weak?? I BEG TO DIFFER. You’ve obviously never handled a .44 mag or a .357. A 44 mag is nothing near weak. Can easily kill a deer, bear, or any other large game animal, and can put one hell of a hole in something. But some thing strikes me as odd. You claim that the shot in a shotgun shell are big, but when I shot my 4-10 and looked at the target, the marks the shot made wasn’t much larger than regular bb’s. But I see that you are setting a trap to try and snare us into thinking handguns are awful. It’ll never work.

157

shagadelicmysteryman wrote:

  1. “410” does not have a hyphen in it.

  2. He claimed that the shot in a number 0 buckshot shotgun shell are big – not the shot in all shells. What shot/buckshot number were you shooting from your 410?

158

I prefer Zambia, but the reference is to Mr and Mrs and Mrs. Zambezi of Python fame.

I a not THE expert, but either )) or OOO buckshot is .38 caliber. And yes, it will killa deer. I have done it before.

Huh?

OK, I am about to take this to the BBQ Pit. Trying to stay calm…trying to stay calm…

I said relatively because a handgun has a short barrel, the powder does not burn completely. Furthermore revolvers are basically like a seive; much of the energy is lost through gaps in the weapon. If you fire .44 mag at night, you can see all of the waste in the form of muzzle flash and backflash. I’ll tell you what, we will pace off 150 yards from each other. You take a >44 mag…no, I will give you a better option, a single shot .223 target pistol or a Gazelle (sp?) your choice. I will take a .222 rifle. Guess who is going to walk away.

sweet mother of… it was BIRDSHT If it was full of )) busk the holes would have bee the size of pencil erasers.

No, I said that handguns are not nearly as deadly as other small arms. Unless you are with 5 feet of me, I don’t see a handgun as a threat. As a matter of fact, if you are that close, I will take you out with a knife.

[note: I am not leveling any threats at anyone. I have no desire to harm anyone ever in my life. I am discussing Killing only to illustrate a point.]

159

Damn Zambezi,

I hope you’re not as quick on the trigger as you are to judge the knowledge of people you chose to debate with.

You said:

Not saying you’re wrong, but first - I’ve never seen #10 shot before. Does this exist? Second, there’s no specific classification that says bird shot is some number or higher. It’s pretty common to call #4 and higher bird shot, especially in these days of nontox. For that matter, though technically not correct, I’ve heard many seasoned hunters (who should know better) refer to everything that comes out of the barrel of a shot gun (except slugs) as buckshot.

Again, I’ve never seen a shell with only 4 shot in it. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I have my doubts. Double-aught is about 12-15 balls and that’s the biggest I’ve seen in real life. There may be some others that are bigger, but I’d bet they are rare.

Of course, it depends on the load, but at 20 yards, #00 buckshot is gonna go right through you. BTW, as long as we’re picking nits, you shouldn’t call these projectiles slugs - they’re still shot. Slugs are a different animal.

And you’d better keep it concealed, since possession of a sawed off shotgun is illegal in most, if not all, states.

Handguns are not hard to aim. The difference is that you actually have to aim them. I find it ironic that you seem to be advocating the use of shotguns because you can be more sloppy and careless with them.

Errr… I think you miscalculated. Even #00 isn’t as big as a .38.

The longer barrel actually slows down the shot. The more shot you have in the barrel and the longer the barrel, the more spread you’re going to see. Unless you have a choked barrel, which is going to slow down the shot even more. The barrel of a gun that shoots bullets has rifling that improves the accuracy and velocity of the single bullet.

Not necessarliy. Both shotgun shells and .38s can have varying loads.

Some people should listen to their own advice.
tracer wrote:

An technically it should have a dot in front since it refers to the bore…

160

OK, you got me, I left off one Zero in the sentence talking about .38 cal. shot. So sue me.

I am having a blast reading about the misconceptions of the anti-gun crowd here, but my point was and is that as far as killing powere goes, pistols are not nearly as effective as shotguns.

And joey, the longer barrel slows the projectile down?

Bwaaaaaahhhhhhh haaaaa haaaaaa ahaa aaa …snort, snort…Bwahhhhh haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa…

God you are funny.