The Rugby world cup - do the Americans know?

In My Humble Opinion
61

This may help:

If you’re tackled - as in grounded and held - you can pass the ball if you’re able to do so “straight away”. Or if the try-line is within reach, without needing to move your body, you can reach out and ground the ball “straight away”. Otherwise you must let go of the ball and something similar to a scrum takes place, except that it’s not a set-piece but an impromptu affair for whoever feels like joining in. For anyone who doesn’t, they must retreat to their own side of the “ruck”, as it’s called. Getting quick ball from a ruck (i.e. from a ruck that lasted for only a few seconds) is a powerful attacking weapon as defenders who couldn’t get back behind the ruck are temporarily “offside” and can’t interfere with play even after the ruck is over. Because of this, defenders may try illegally to prevent the ball coming out, and can be severely punished for it.

If you’re grabbed but not grounded, players from either side may join in the resulting “maul”, which is like a ruck but with the ball carried. Again, anyone not in the maul must retreat behind it to their own side. Once the maul’s in being - the ball-carrier plus at least one player from each side all scrapping for it - there is no longer a “tackle” situation, and bringing down the ball-carrier is illegal (“a maul ends a tackle”) until he quits the maul or the ball is released from it. However, if you can get the ball away from him, you’re at liberty to do so.

Rugby league (RL) looks a little more like American football, in that a tackle ends the current play and the player with the ball must replay it in what RL laughingly calls a “ruck”, in which everyone lets him go, he places the ball on the ground and rolls it back with his foot, and play continues. But on the sixth tackle, the ball is turned over to the opposition. (It’s always “nth and goal” in RL).

Hope this helps.

62

What, what, WHAT? No sport has prettier grounds than baseball. I offer you proof in the form of Pac Bell Park in San Francisco, PNC Park in Pittsburgh, Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, Camden Yards in Baltimore, Kauffman Stadium in Kansas City, Comerica Park in Detroit, and Yankee Stadium in New York.

Of course, I’m leaving off such hideous eyesores as the Metrodome in Minneapolis, Tropicana Field in Tampa Bay, Stade Olympique in Montreal, Shea Stadium in New York, and the worst stadium of them all - the soon to be departed Veterans’ Stadium in Philadelphia.

But I’ll put the best baseball parks up against any other sporting venue in the world in terms of sheer beauty.

63

So I just watched my second rugby game ever. The first I watched for about 20 minutes…this one I watched for an hour and a half. It was Japan getting trounced by Scotland. I assume this game was neither the best nor the worst rugby has to offer.

I had the same reaction as the first game…there really is some great action in rugby. I think Japan showed some great heart, but it was just not meant to be.

Comparing football to rugby is, quite simply, a disservice to football. I have often heard the “football is rugby with pads” comment. Clearly, this is made by people who do not understand football. I could just as easily say “rugby is football without hitting or strategy.” Both statements are brimming with ignorance.

Minor nitpick annoyances I have with rugby:

  • Clock doesn’t stop when the ball goes out of play
  • Players are allowed to lift teammates up to gain an advantage

These annoyances I chalk up to my ignorance. But there are also some major complaints I have:

  • There is no passing (no QB!)
  • There is no blocking (or am I mistaken?)
  • There are no plays (no strategy!)
  • Most of the time, most players aren’t hustling

The last is the one the kills it for me. The stop-start annoyance of football, IMO, is more than made up for by the fact that while the ball is in play, just about everybody is hustling just about all the time. I was shocked to watch, consistently and repeatedly, players on defense standing around the offensive player with the ball. The guy’s got the ball, man – kill him! Make him not want the ball anymore by crushing him.

Also, I dislike sports that disfigure people. I don’t like the lack of teeth in hockey, and judging by the players in this game, the same holds true for rugby. Not to even mention the rampant cauliflower ear. An NFL player, while more likely to be hurt, is virtually never going to be disfigured. Losing teeth is almost unheard of. (Mouthguards, don’tcha know.)

I could say that football is rugby + chess. But that would be a disservice to the brutality of football, which is on a scale far beyond rugby.

Rugby is probably my favorite sport of all the sports America doesn’t care about. It’s a damn sight more interesting than baseball, but it just looks so close to highschool football that I’ll probably never get into it. I can’t even watch college football…I need to see the best athletes coached by the best minds. And I saw no coaching in that rugby game whatsoever.

As far as “isn’t it great how everybody needs to kick?” Um, no. Specialization is a cornerstone of American life, and we like to see that reflected in our sports. Watching people who can’t kick is decidedly less interesting than watching people who can actually do it well.

Having said all that, I could easily get into watching the American team in the tournament. Does anybody know when FSW is broadcasting them? Or are we already eliminated?

As to the OP, I agree that it is a shame the US doesn’t know we’re in this tournament. It’s way better than NBA preseason, it’s more interesting than early NHL action, and it’s more entertaining (to me, at least) than playoff baseball.

64

Side note: I definitely got into watching the American )matches in the last (FIFA?) World Cup, and am looking forward to the next one. I’d love it if I could get into rugby that much at least.

65

Is this an informed assertion? Have you been to Adelaide oval, Lords, or North Sydney oval?

66

Not to mention some of the grounds in the West Indies and Sri Lanka. The facilities may look a bit shabby but the breath taking views and the colourful stands more than make up for it.

In reply to some of **Ellis Dee’s ** impressions:

The clock not stopping thing is not entirely true, the referee can call time off but usually only does so if there’s an injury or some sort of unusual delay, and forming a lineout or scrum usually doesn’t count. This feature certainly helps with TV scheduling though as games can be relied upon to end within 90-100 minutes of the initial kickoff (extra time will only be played in the knockout games).

The lifting in the lineout thing that annoyed you only came in the last ten or so years. The traditionalists aren’t happy about it but IMHO it helps clear the ball from lineouts more quickly as there are now more clean takes.

There’s a huge amount of passing in rugby!!! Oh you mean forward passing… well rugby’s offside rules really don’t allow that sort of thing (and forward passes are banned anyway).

There’s no blocking, in fact obstructing a tackler is a penalty.

There probably weren’t many plays in Scotland v Japan as neither side has a particularly innovative style (you’ve got to love the Japanese players commitment though). Back line moves from set phases are common, but often can’t be seen from the relatively narrow angle of TV coverage. Backs will often change formation during a scrum, with players moving from the openside to the blindside and the full back entering the line - looks great if you’re at the game and can get the full picture.

The lack of hustle that annoyed you so much is a result of the continual flow of the game - the uncommitted defenders are forming up for the next phase as the attacking team will usually recover the ball from the tackle situation. There’s very little point to three or four players monstering the ball carrier only for the attacking team to then recover the ball and create an overlap because the defending backline has disappeared into the pile-up.

As for the US - they played Fiji last night (I won’t tell you the score in case you catch some delayed coverage). It’s their first game, their next three are against Scotland on Monday 20th October, Japan on Monday 27th and France on Friday 31st. Remember that Aussie’s a day ahead of the US if you’re looking for live coverage.

Hope you stick with it and enjoy the games!

67

Neither point is a huge obstacle to my enjoyment of the game. Interesting insight into the “lifting” history. One of the overriding principles in football is that every man is an island…you cannot aid or assist any player on the field at any time for any reason. But that is a football thing that may very well not translate at all into the mindset of rugby.

Those are called laterals in football. They exist, but you see fewer the higher you go. (Tons in highschool, fair amount in college, virtually none in the pros.)

Must…hit…someone…:slight_smile: No big deal, I’m sure I can learn to enjoy the intricacies of rugby, given a few good games.

One drawback to the continuous flow of rugby/footie I noticed but didn’t mention is the lack of replays. (Also a problem with hockey.) The replays in football enhance the game exponentially…it is impossible to appreciate the depth of play without them. The only way to handle it (that I can see) is unacceptable…tape delay the broadcast, and have the announcers call the tape, with stops for replays that pause the (in reality unpaused) action.

You are almost certainly correct. But what if I assembled a team that had one focus: hurt the ball carrier. Every time a player got the ball and wasn’t sprinting, three guys slam into him at full speed. Sure, you go up by 20 points in the first half. Fine. But every guy who touched the ball is tattooed. After the 5th or 6th brain-jarring hit, how eager are your players going to be to get the ball? (I’d also like to see a hockey team try this.)

Sweet, I’ll definately check it out. We are tape-delayed to the next day. And please don’t tell me results…I do want to see the action “live”.

I’m damn sure going to give it a chance. There’s a lot to like about rugby.

To all the rugby fans out there, as I’m sure you already know, I know virtually nothing about rugby, and am a die-hard football fan, so take my comparisons with a grain of salt. I’ll have better questions/complaints after the tournament.

Back on topic, what’s the format of the tournament? Do we play those 3 games no matter what? Who’s in our pool? How many/which of the teams in each pool advance?

Watching a rugby player break the line (I know no terms) with the ball in a full-out sprint and juking defenders is a sight to behold. I couldn’t care less about Japan or Scotland, but on those “breakaways” my heart started pounding and my adrenalin started flowing. It was on par with the excitement I feel during a run-after-the-catch (YAC) in football. (But I do sorely miss the beauty of a well-thrown pass or a spectacular catch. NOt to mention bone-crunching hits over the middle.)

68

When I first started watching American Football, it was very difficult to follow, as it seemed to me that everybody just ran into the nearest person and fell over :slight_smile: In rugby, at least you know that where people are running into each other, that’s where the ball is!! As Ellis says, it was the stop-start nature of the game that allowed the commentators the time and space to replay the play and explain what we were looking at, which led to me growing in understanding and appreciation and enjoyment of the game. In rugby the only time you get to do this is during the break at half-time or after the game.
**

Four pools of five teams all of whom play each other, so each team gets at least four matches in the tournament - Four points for a win. Two points for a draw. One bonus point for scoring four tries. One bonus point for losing by seven points or less. The two teams (in each pool) with the most points at the end of the pool matches will advance to the knockout rounds, with the team coming first in the pool playing a team coming second in another pool and vice versa. That’s why the game on Saturday between England and South Africa is such a crunch match - the team that wins the game is certain to top the pool, and the team that comes second in the pool is drawn to play the All Blacks (New Zealand) in the quarter finals… not a happy prospect…

Grim
[sup]Hier kom die Bokke, hier kom die Bokke…[/sup]

69

Well that clears up some confusion I had when the announcers went on about Scotland’s four tries.

Not looking for in-depth analysis, could somebody give me the bare bones of how scoring works? For instance, what is a try and how many points is it worth?

Or, if you prefer, post a link to a site with a brief explanation?

70

Grimpixie’s right, the game between England and South Africa on Saturday is the crucial match in the pool stages. It should be an epic encounter, with a fair bit of spite involved as England humiliated the Boks last year at Twickenham.

I’m unsure as to the outcome - I’d love to see England lose as I’m sick of them winning all the time but by the same token I really don’t want to see the All Blacks bundled out in the quarters by them…

71

Here’s a link to the methods of scoring. I had to be a bit careful about that one as my preferred source had the USA - Fiji result in a sidebar! Finally enough its from an American site on Women’s rugby.

72

Yes, both teams expect a much easier quarter-final draw for the winner of this match.
From memory, at least one South African was ‘sin-binned’ at Twickenham (and England scored a pushover try, which will have been a shock to the S. African forward reputation.)

Good grief! New Zealand ‘bundled out’?! :confused: No way (I speak as a long-time England supporter).
The All Blacks (like England) have talent everywhere in their team. This will be a tense, tight match, when ever it happens. I just hope it’s the final!

73

“Epic” about sums it up - I just hope that SA can keep it clean and go some way to repairing thier reputation for foul play that began in that Twickenham drubbing… As for the outcome - my heart and my head tell me two different things…

:slight_smile: Grim

74

This is probably due to the rules relating to rucks (mini scrums that occur in play) and mauls (mini scrums that occur in play with one player squashed on the ground*), wherein players not involved in the play are merely trying to get into an advantageous position (while avoiding offside), and the ball may only pass out of the ruck/maul in one direction. It does look like they’re just standing around while the others scrap it out, I agree.

Glad you’re watching anyway, Ellis. BTW, here’s evidence of Rugby strategy.

(*Forgive me if I’m slightly messed up on the nuances here - I stopped playing rugby aged 15 when I shattered my collarbone and went temporarily blind in one eye.)

75

I’ve been to Lords and found it to be quite nice. Never the other two.

After cruising Google for a bit, I ran across this site for Adelaide oval. And I’m definitely not impressed. It looks like a nice place to watch a match and all, but nothing incredible. I think Lords was better. But perhaps the photos are not doing it justice.

And here is some pictures of North Sydney oval. Again, looks like a very pleasant place, but I’ll put any ballpark in the US up against it. OK, not any. But several.

I also enjoy the fact that when notquitekarpov states that cricket has the better pitches and I counter by saying that I’ll put the best ballparks up against it, I’m the only one who is assumed to be arguing out of ignorance.

76

How I have longed to hear that from a Kiwi.

Please, say it again. And again. And again.

Music to my ears.

77

I don’t think it’d work as, frankly, after 15-20 minutes your team would be too knackered to do anything. We’re talking about full on continuous running at American Football-like speeds?

Don’t forget that to be able to compete in scrums and suchlike you’d need some pretty big men who really aren’t going to run that fast continuously. Maybe short sprints, liek in American Football, but not Rugby-style continuous.

Which reminds me. One sure-fire way to counter your tactic is to keep the ball in the forwards. They continually form rolling-mauls (basically, as soon as they get the ball out of the big mound of men they run a tiny bit and then set the ball up for a maul on purpose. A properly formed rolling maul doesn’t see one man free running with the ball, it is more like a continually moving mass of men). If you can’t get to the man with the ball there is no way you can take him out.

78

What’s with that 72 hour delay? Isn’t that a wee bit excessive?

79

I agree. It’s pretty ridiculous to make you Americans wait three days to see your team play. Perhaps it’s to avoid clashing with that baseball thingie that seems ot be going on at the moment (although even then the games can’t take up all day can they?)

Oh, and before I forget…

No.

80

Doesn’t work, for an example watch rugby league. Gang tackles are commonplace there, even a feature of the game.

The reason is that the players doing the gang tackle have to do the ball carrying too. No breaks in play to rest or roll on a team of substitutes. Defense is therefore heavier work than attacking, and the team with dominance in possession will, on usually win. Teams based around defence only win if they keep up the intensity for the full game.