I’m not certain, but I’d guess that it may be because his Baseball Reference entry simply lists him as “outfielder” in a number of seasons, and seems to indicate he played a lot of right field, as well.
WEll, here’s my ballot.
Carl Yastrzemski
Turkey Stearnes
Tim Raines
Al Simmons
Goose Goslin
Manny Ramirez
Willie Stargell
Billy Williams
Minnie Minoso
Ralph Kiner
This was a harder ballot. Because of the Inner Circle vote, the top three guys are all gone. Turkey Stearnes absolutely was a better hitter than at least half the guys on my ballot and could play defense; the only person here I am totally convinced was as good or better than Stearnes was Yaz (though of course Bonds, Williams and Rickey were are all at least good, but they’re in already) so bumping Kiner for him was an easy pick. But then Kiner got back on because I decided Pete Rose can wait and Shoeless Joe can burn in hell. He is probably the only Negro League left fielder worth serious consideration; the really good Negro League outfielders are all in center and right, except Stearnes.
Stearnes of course is the guy famous for being in love with his bats and talking to them; every gag about a baseball player talking to his bats goes back to Stearnes. He had his bats custom made to his own specifications in a variety of weights, to be used in different situations, like a lighter model to face a fastball pitcher or a heavier model if he felt he was swinging too early, and he carried about his bats in special lined cases, the way a musician might transport his instruments. You DID NOT ask to borrow one of his bats.
I’m sure all this irritated his teammates and managers, but he was otherwise a nice, quiet guy and if you have an outfielder who hits like Ted Williams you can put up with some eccentricities.
You could argue for seven or eight guys along with Kiner. **On this ballot we’re definitely electing at least one guy who is not as good as people left off other ballots. ** That’s why we’re gonna have runoff votes.
Why the hostility towards Shoeless Joe? Perhaps I’m a bit influenced by his portrayal in Eight Men Out, but I’ve never read anything about the Black Sox controversy that put him at the center of it, just as a guy grabbing some cash with what was a fait-accompli. How do you put Manny’s PED tainted butt in on the same ballot?
Or is there something else about Shoeless Joe that I’m unaware of: did he trade hood-starching tips with Ty Cobb?
Well, yeah, but was he one of the top 10 left fielders of all time?
I think he’d be an okay choice. He’s not top five. But if you’re asking me to choose between a guy who conspired to throw the World Series and guys who always tried to win, well, that’s a tiebreaker. YMMV.
He took the money, which justifies the lifetime ban. But I’m not convinced he didn’t try to win.
Roy White?!? Is there a mediocre Yankee quota we need to fill?
Al Simmons
Tim Raines
Minny Minoso
Goose Goslin
Manny Ramirez
Joe Medwick
Zack Wheat
Bob Johnson
Ralph Kiner
Lou Brock
Questionable, perhaps, but no less worthy than Lou Brock, Matt Holliday, Joe Jackson, Jim Rice, Minnie Minoso, and Bobby Veach, all of whom got votes here.
Does anybody really think Ed Delahanty was a better player than Roy White?
White is one of those players who looks a lot better with the “advanced metrics” than he did when he was active.
He was somebody who did a lot of things rather well, but didn’t have any one thing that stood out especially, and those kinds of players haven’t traditionally been rated very highly.
He stole double-digits worth of bases each year (but only once as many as 30), he hit double-digits worth of homers nearly every year (but only once as many as 20), he walked a lot (but never quite 100 times a year), his batting averages were okay–he came close to .300 about four times, but never quite got there.
The advanced metrics add points for being pretty good defensively, and they like him because of all the offensive things he did well–and especially because he played in a low-offense era, in a park that wasn’t all that conducive to offense. In a sense they see his stats as deflated by circumstances; they’re trying to put a little air back in them. When you look at his stats and say “mediocre,” the people at Baseball Reference would say, “Yes, but if you put him in a better park for a hitter in a better era for a hitter…”
Anyway, if you go by WAR, White’s career total is 46.7. Rice’s is 47.4, Brock’s 45.2. Holliday’s stands right now at 44.4.
You don’t have to buy any of this, of course. But a lot of folks do, and that’s where the Roy-White-was-one-of-the-12-or-13-best-LFs-in-baseball-history notion comes from. It doesn’t just come out of, um, “left field.”
Al Simmons
Tim Raines
Goose Goslin
Billy Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Fred Clarke
Willie Stargell
Jose Cruz
Minnie Minoso
Luis Gonzalez
There were a lot of other guys I could have voted for. In particular, Brock, Medwick, Berkman, Holliday, and Kiner don’t seem to me to be much below Stargell, Cruz, Gonzalez, and Minoso (at least, limiting Minoso to what he did in the majors). I haven’t been voting for 19th c players as a rule but Burkett and Delahanty were pretty darn good in that context. Bob Johnson was better than I thought, Zack Wheat too. And of course Albert Belle and George Foster had some mighty big years.
Well, I was asked for ten, no more, no less, so here we are.
I will only add that my middle school self, a Cardinals fan and Cubs hater in Chicago, would have been appalled to discover that a later-in-life version of himself actually thought that BILLY WILLIAMS might *possibly *have been better than LOU BROCK. Heresy!
You don’t get to criticize someone else’s ballot when you’ve left Yaz off of your own!
That must have been a mistake, but then again, I don’t see how you can put at least half of that list ahead of Billy Williams. I don’t actually believe White is a hall of famer, but since we’re doing ten, all of the the players at the bottom are flawed.
Al Simmons
Billy Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Goose Goslin
Manny Ramirez
Minnie Minoso
Ralph Kiner
Tim Raines
Turkey Stearnes
Willie Stargell
I had a bit of a struggle to justify including some players who are not really deserving of the HOF.
Yaz
Ed Delahanty
Ralph Kiner
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Al Simmons
Turkey Stearnes
Billy Williams
Willie Stargell
Minnie Minoso
The Ed Delahanty/Niagara Falls story is the best. (Though not for him.)
Bump to see if anyone else wants to put their ballot in (Hawkeyeop seems to prefer throwing his hat in towards the end) before I call this one. I’ll let it run until next Tuesday, March 14 before I tally things up.
Anyone else want to volunteer to throw the Center Fielder thread up? I feel like I cocked things up a bit here.
I’ll do CF. And you did a fine job.
However, let’s take a break and do CF starting March 20. The voting numbers are slowing down and maybe by getting further towards baseball season we can get some more voters. By the time the season starts we’ll be into pitchers and runoff ballots, and baseball interest increases when baseball is taking place.
**
I also urge everyone who knows a baseball fan who isn’t here to join so they can vote.**
Sad if this effort has died…
How many positions are left? CF and RF? And utility/multi-position?
We have not yet done pitchers, as well. Plus any non-position ballots (managers, broadcasters, etc.)