The Senate torture report

[Boyo_Jim]

@Lobohan

This thread is amazing. The GOP, the party of forced sodomy on helpless people!™

Change the last word to “muslims” and the GOP will cheerfully adopt it as a motto.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Terr

I draw the line at actual torture. Again, I don’t consider loud music, sleep deprivation etc. torture. Sexual assault/rape is unacceptable. Serious question, iiandyiiii - why do you think the interrogators used loud music, sleep deprivation etc., instead of just pulling nails with pliers? Do you have an explanation?

Could you please offer examples of what you would consider to be “sexual assault” or “rape” that would be unacceptable?

Is it sexual assault or rape if her vagina is penetrated by a penis?

Is it sexual assault or rape if her anus is penetrated by a penis?

Is it sexual assault or rape if her vagina is penetrated by a baton, nightstick or some other object?

Is it sexual assault or rape if her anus is penetrated by a baton, nightstick or some other object?

Please explain why you hold the views you do and what distinctions you feel apply.

[Terr]

@iiandyiiii

They’re both “real torture”. Sleep deprivation causes pain and discomfort for just a day or two. For a week, this would certainly be severe, on top of the mental anguish – which definitely fits “real torture”.

What about waterboarding – “real torture” to you?

I lean to no. It is scary and distressing but not torture.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Terr

I lean to no. It is scary and distressing but not torture.

And you have this opinion from personal experience of being waterboarded?

[RickJay]

@Terr

Wrong. There is quite a lot that I would object to government doing.

To be honest, I really don’t believe you. But my point stands; I believe these is essentially anything the USA could do, including gassing a hundred thousand Iraqi children, and the usual suspects on this board would say it was okay.

[elucidator]

…It is scary and distressing but not torture.

Ah! Torture Lite!

[iiandyiiii]

@Terr

I lean to no. It is scary and distressing but not torture.

I’ll go with Christopher Hitchens (who voluntarily was waterboarded) on this one – if waterboarding is not torture, nothing is torture.

I’ve nearly drowned, and I can tell you that it had a profound psychological impact on me, long-term. Hitchens said that waterboarding had this affect on him, too. If an interrogation technique causes long-term mental anguish, that sounds like torture to me.

[Ramira]

The poster is keeping to the homeland of birth values

[iiandyiiii]

Terr, you say you oppose “Real torture” because you think milder techniques are as effective. But what if some “real torture” method were shown to be foolproof (and better than the “milder techniques”) for getting information? Would you still oppose it?

[Terr]

@iiandyiiii

That doesn’t compute. Not that there’s any documented textual evidence that it worked (only “CIA guys say it worked”)

There is no documented textual evidence that it didn’t work (only “Democrats on the committee say it didn’t work, Republicans on the same committee say it did”).

but even if there was, this wouldn’t tell us anything about whether other tactics would work better. There’s no way to know if we got all the information out of every captive that they knew.

We got enough information to dismantle Al Queda’s top echelon. Pretty good.

[iiandyiiii]

@Terr

But until the process concludes, is it legal or not?

I don’t think we can know for sure.

[BrainGlutton]

@Terr

Because of Constitutional rights that apply to US citizens.

N.B.: Noncitizens in the U.S. have the same rights under the BoR. (Which is why the Gitmo facility exists and why the CIA does its torturing outside our borders.) Generally speaking, there are only two categories of rights/privileges citizens have that noncitizens have not: To reside and work on U.S. soil, and to vote.

[Terr]

@iiandyiiii

Terr, you say you oppose “Real torture” because you think milder techniques are as effective. But what if some “real torture” method were shown to be foolproof (and better than the “milder techniques”) for getting information? Would you still oppose it?

Depends. Does it leave permanent physical damage or long-term health problems? Is the information I am seeking extremely critical?

[BobLibDem]

@Terr

I lean to no. It is scary and distressing but not torture.

It sure used to be. It’s only a war crime and torture when done to Americans?

[BrainGlutton]

@Terr

Point to one non-combatant that was tortured.

How would we even know?

[Der_Trihs]

@Terr

Once again, with emphasis: the CIA, out of multiple thousands of captive enemy combatants, selected less than 100 for the interrogation program, and only used the extreme methods of interrogation on 30 or so of them - those whom they considered high enough in the enemy hierarchy to have critical information. They didn’t just willy-nilly torture people for the hell of it to get their jollies, or as punishment for fighting us etc.

Oh, nonsense. They grabbed people especially at random, including people who were pointed out to them by personal enemies or in return for a no-questions-asked bounty. It had nothing to do with being an “enemy combatant”.

And they did it because they are monsters; enemies of humanity.* Hostis humani generis.* The rest is just details.

[Slash1972]

@Terr

Once again, with emphasis: the CIA, out of multiple thousands of captive enemy combatants, selected less than 100 for the interrogation program, and only used the extreme methods of interrogation on 30 or so of them - those whom they considered high enough in the enemy hierarchy to have critical information. They didn’t just willy-nilly torture people for the hell of it to get their jollies, or as punishment for fighting us etc.

If that is the case in our enemies treating some Americans - yes, I would say “that’s just what happens in war”.

Thanks for telling me something I’ve read already. AND emphasizing it!

However, that didn’t answer my question of - What definition of torture would you use, in order to limit our treatment of prisoners to not torture?

[Terr]

@iiandyiiii

I don’t think we can know for sure.

Ah then the same with “torture”?

[elucidator]

@Terr

There is no documented textual evidence that it didn’t work (only “Democrats on the committee say it didn’t work, Republicans on the same committee say it did”).
We got enough information to dismantle Al Queda’s top echelon. Pretty good.

Oh, yeah, fer sure, they wouldn’t lie about that! All that other stuff, well, mistakes were made, but we can rely on that!

[running_coach]

@Terr

I lean to no. It is scary and distressing but not torture.

Read Scylla’s thread I linked to. He thought like you did, that waterboarding wasn’t torture. Boy howdy, did he change his mind.