The PNAC was not responsible for the invasion of Iraq.
Check the names of its leaders and reconsider.
Even if that was the case the point I was making was related to the “final sale” of the invasion, IIRC there were a lot of demands from the Bush administration to get that information that would link Osama with Saddam.
This BTW takes us to one reason why torture is used for by reprehensible leaders. In the past the torturers found evidence to take the gold and other posesions from the ones accused of witchcraft or that under pressure had converted from Islam or Judaism but were not “true” Christians; incidentally no one that uses reason nowadays thinks that the ones that confessed under torture then were real witches.
But if before the reasons were to “save souls”, and conveniently gain their valuables, the false evidence obtained in recent days by the former administration was also very, very valuable. It helped to justify their reprehensible actions. Just like the rulers of the past that used torture did.
And their orders were to burn villages to the ground spread various diseases and then leave? Can you cite this? It makes no sense.
Your bizarre jus tertii argument is incredibly feeble. The crimes of Imperial Japan cannot provide any justification for the CIAs torture programme.
What do you hope to gain by this diversionary trek into WWII history? If it history that whets your appetite, you can read Mark Twain on the disgraceful American betrayal of the Filipino revolution. And a cute custom the American soldiers called the “water cure”.
Is it jus tertii all the way down?
**
Donald Rump** and other posters in the previous discussion of that think that it makes sense, besides the operation being planned 2 days before the Doolitle raid the Japanese did the same in many other locations, the mass murder in and around Nanjing took place years before that.
Again, the only reason why that side issue was pointed out was just to show how you are misusing history to make a point that is not much related to the matter at hand, and it is clear that even though it is a hole you are digging yourself into, it is clear that it is preferable for you to continue with that instead of looking at how our intelligence was corrupted by torture and the false information obtained was used in part to justify the Iraq invasion.
Inded, nor the US Gov lawyers who determined torture was permissible in some circs.
Most common conviction for the murders and torture at Abu Graib was Deriliection of Duty.
grin thumbs up
Honestly, this thread with its vociferous advocates for torture makes me want to retch. Where’s Barfy Smiley when you need him? 
Here are the convincing arguments for torture:
>crickets<
Here are the arguments that are NOT convincing. Repeat, NOT convincing:
[ul]
[li]The bad guys do bad stuff.[/li][li]It’s not really torture. I’d sacrifice my own life to keep my daughter from having to endure it, and I’d execute enemies who did it to our own troops, but it’s just mild discomfort, really. Yeah.[/li][li]There’s a tiny, remote chance that—amidst all the time wasted chasing down false leads, raving of victims who literally lost their minds, and random gibberish from victims who will say anything to make the “mild discomfort” stop—a crumb of actionable intelligence might be obtained.[/li][li]If it’s so bad, why isn’t Obama stopping it?[/li][li]People do this stuff for sexual kinks. Safe words are for cowards.[/li][li]My favorite president-saint and Darth Cheney authorized it, how bad could it be?[/li][li]It’s not evil if America does it, by definition. Amurrica, fuk yeah! [/li][/ul]
:smack:
We now have national poll results available.
Q: All in all, do you think the CIA treatment of suspected terrorists was justified or unjustified?
59% said Justified.
Looks more divided to me as there is also this:
What I can conclude is that the opinion of many is to be confused, in reality it is really baffling that most can think that the CIA misled the White house and the public and at the same time think that this was justified.
In any case, this is the time where leadership does count to lead most people into the light, to do the right thing and teach to more Americans about the deceptions torture made possible; but sadly there are very few John McCains among the Republicans now.
If you had taken a poll in 1800, you might have found a majority backed slavery. If you had polled the armed forces in the 1940s, a majority would have opposed an integrated army. You can’t justify an immoral policy on the opinion of a populace in which a large number think that uttering 9/11 is the Ace of Trumps in all matters.
I’m not seeing most. 21% of the total population believes that the program intentionally mislead and that the misleading was justified. Not even the majority of those who think it was misleading think it was justifiable to mislead. It’s still troubling but the survey does lump together the public with White House/Congressional oversight. It would be interesting if they’d crafted the study to break out the oversight of government from the public in the misleading. I can easily see some that would have a difference of opinion on misleading the public about a sensitive and highly classified program versus misleading government oversight. I could also see people having differences of opinion about the justification of one kind of misleading versus the other. Forced to lump them all together by the survey people would have had to fit nuanced opinion into black and white.
Scratches my head You do get that the ICC (even if the US was a signatory) basically prosecutes war crimes that nations are unable or unwilling to prosecute internally? The ICC complements not replaces national justice systems for war crimes. The eleven court martials held under UCMJ basically were the trial for those Soldiers. Since the charges included things like maltreatment of prisoners, in effect there were trials for the war crimes committed. The ICC could have had a role for those not tried or if the charges at court martial did not include certain violations.
Your point?
The original observation was that only the losing side gets tried for war crimes.
The attempt at rebuttal was that U.S. personnel were prosecuted for war crimes and that (from the perspective of that poster) the U.S. had not lost the war but had prosecuted war crimes.
My note indicated that the Abu Ghraib personnel had not been prosecuted as war criminals so that (regardless whether one believes we won or lost in Iraq), we still have not displayed an example of personnel on the winning side being prosecuted for war crimes.
But the same poll has only 49% of the people answering yes to the question “Do you personally think the CIA treatment of suspected terrorists amounted to torture, or not?” (38% said not and 13% had no opinion.)
I think it’s safe to assume that a large number of the people who feel the CIA’s treatment of suspected terrorists was justified includes those who think this treatment didn’t amount to torture. So we can’t read the result as being that 59% said torture was justified.
If you go to the later question “Do you feel that torture of suspected terrorists can be justified?” we get the following results:
Often justified - 17%
Sometimes justified - 40%
Rarely justified - 19%
Never justified - 20%
No opinion - 4%
Now we’re into the ambiguity of defining often, sometimes, and rarely.
Is criticizing Islam allowed in The BBQ Pit?
Who should I blame for the following-?
The following is not exactly new news but it ain’t that old either
12 yr old boy SHOT DEAD in front of your eyes
Updated 9.48 p.m., 3rd Oct 2000
http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad/sniper.html
The sad story of the never ending killing of Palestinian children by the Israeli Defense Force all in the name of self-defense.
Murdering little girls is an Israeli sport it seems
Gaza girl said killed
By Amos Harel and Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondents,
and Haaretz Service
Thu., October 28, 2004
IDF troops shot and killed an 8-year-old Palestinian girl who was on her way to school in a Gaza Strip refugee camp
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/494672.html
UN officials: Girl hit by IDF gunfire in UN school in Gaza
By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent and AP
Tue., October 12, 2004 Tishrei 27, 5765
An 11-year-old Palestinian girl was shot in the stomach and critically wounded by Israel Defense Forces gunfire IDF troops fired two shots, one of the shots hit a fifth-grade student at the school. Last month, a 10-year-old girl was killed by IDF gunfirewhile sitting at her desk at the same school.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/487788.html
United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) 7 September 2004 At 07:45 10-year old Raghda Adnan Al-Assar was struck in the head by Israeli fire while sitting at her desk in UNRWA’s Elementary
Girl’s School On June 1 this year two ten-year old children in UNRWA’s
Al-Umariye Elementary Boys’ School in Rafah were hit by a bullet from a Israeli tank
In March 2003
12-year old Hoda Darwish was hit in the head by a bullet fired Two 10 year-old schoolchildren were shot in the al-Omaria school run by UNRWA in Rafah, when an Israeli tank fired into their classroom.
Bullets fired from the tank flew through the classroom window, hitting Mahmoud Hamad in the neck and Hisham al Habil in the head. The boys had not even been sitting by the windows but in the middle of the room.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/index.html
Photos of a 12 year old palestinian boy being shot by Israeli soldiers and the ambulance driver who tried to save him also being shot and killed.
Three-year-old Rawan Abu Zeid, who took bullets in the neck and ead while buying candy with her friends.
5 June 2004
An eight-year-old Palestinian girl shot dead by Israeli troops in the central Gaza Strip was killed while showing off her new school uniform to friends
http://tinyurl.com/99kh8zk
Boy of 17, shot by Israeli soldiers, left bleeding overnight to die
September 8, 2003
The bullet ridden corpse of Mohammad Abdullah Abu al-Husni, was found yesterday morning near the town of Jabaliya, where he lived in Gaza.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/updates/left_to_die.htm
Haneen, who was eight years old, had been shot twice in the head by an Israeli soldier as she walked down the street in Khan Yunis refugee camp with her mother.
28 July 2003
She was coming down the street and ran to me and hugged me, crying,
‘Mother, mother’. Two bullets hit her in the head, one straight after the other.
She was still in my arms and she died."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...007051,00.html
This boy was in his own house and an IDF soldier barges into the house and shoots him dead Mohammed a 7-year-old boy fell dead, still clutching his piece of bread.
Tuesday December 23, 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...112055,00.html
Baby is born then dies
September 11, 2003
Birth and death at the checkpoint
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/338937.html
Three shot in the back by Israeli snipers, one a 15-year-old boy
Siege off Nablus
January, 2004
15 year old boy who was shot while standing in front of his house. The sniper bulet hit Amjad in the back. He died on his way to the hospital. The second is Amer Kathym Arafat who was also shot in the back by a sniper bullet. The third is Rouhi Hazem Shouman, 25, who was also shot in the back by a sniper.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/appe…_the_siege.htm
Three-year-old Rawan Abu Zeid, who took bullets in the neck and head while buying candy with her friends.
5 June 2004
15 year old boy & Amer Kathym & Rouhi Hazem Shouman all shot in the back by a sniper.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/appe…_the_siege.htm
An eight-year-old Palestinian girl shot dead by Israeli troops in the central Gaza Strip was killed while showing off her new school uniform to friends
http://tinyurl.com/99kh8zk
IDF shoots 13-year-old girl in the back with 20 bullets and then the IDF commander goes over to the girl and shoots her again to make sure she was dead
Tue., October 05, 2004
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/485274.html
“I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."
http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/children.html
http://tinyurl.com/8rmn2g3
.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.Islam did not carry out the acts above, so who did-?
Just asking
Just Asking Questions, (also known as JAQing off), is considered poor form on this forum.
Beyond that, this is the second time in a few weeks that you have reposted the same glurge off topic to a thread. That is spamming and is a bannable action.
If you feel the need to start a thread promoting a CiA/Mossad Conspiracy Theory, you may open a new thread to do so. I urge you, however, to find some actual facts, (preferably more recent than ten years ago), to support your position.
However, if you continue to spam your beliefs in unrelated threads, you will jeopardize your posting privileges, here.
[ /Moderating. ]