The Signifying Douchebag? [Henry Gates arrest - racism?]

[Magiver]

@chique

A cop should know that even better - they’re supposed to be the professionals. And, yet, time and again we’ve seen situations (many recorded) where an officer goes into a situation all cowboyed up, escalating benign situations beyond stupidity.

A Harvard professor who studies race relations should know better than to start in on the officers asking for ID and throwing out the race card. He could not be more insensitive.

[MOIDALIZE]

@Magiver

A Harvard professor should understand that treating people rudely will not return respect. He owes the officers an apology.

He wasn’t some hapless store clerk being dressed down by a customer, he was a police officer with the power to arrest people harrassing a man in his own home. Who gives a shit if he got treated rudely?

Why can’t you seem to grasp the concept that when a man is in his home, there’s a whole host of crap from the government that he simply doesn’t have to stand for?

[Richard_Parker]

@Magiver

That’s funny. Really. You live in a nice neigborhood and the cops quickly respond to a burglary call. The horror. Most folks would appreciate that and welcome the officers. “Hi, thanks for arriving so quickly, come on in while I get my license”.

I wouldn’t be so quick to generalize your views to “most folks.” People in this country have vastly different experiences with police, depending on who they are and where they live. If you’re white, middle-class, and you live in a small city or town, your experience with the police may be vastly different from other people in this country.

One usually isn’t too eager to invite officers into one’s home after a few bad interactions with the police.

[holmes]

@MOIDALIZE

He wasn’t some hapless store clerk being dressed down by a customer, he was a police officer with the power to arrest people harrassing a man in his own home. Who gives a shit if he got treated rudely?

Why can’t you seem to grasp the concept that when a man is in his home, there’s a whole host of crap from the government that he simply doesn’t have to stand for?

Just to add to the discussion, I was surprised to see the “Morning Joe” crew support Gates’ right to be a ‘douchebag’, to the cop.Those are some nice gang colors Gates is wearing

[Magiver]

@MOIDALIZE

He wasn’t some hapless store clerk being dressed down by a customer, he was a police officer with the power to arrest people harrassing a man in his own home. Who gives a shit if he got treated rudely?

Wow, just wow. It’s that kind of arrogance that brings joy to the world.

@MOIDALIZE

Why can’t you seem to grasp the concept that when a man is in his home, there’s a whole host of crap from the government that he simply doesn’t have to stand for?

Why can’t you grasp that if you don’t treat people with respect that they will respond accordingly.

[chique]

@Magiver

Why can’t you grasp that if you don’t treat people with respect that they will respond accordingly.

I’m not speaking for MOIDALIZE but I completely grasp that. After reading the police report, however, it seems clear that the lack of respect came from the cop’s direction from the start, and Gates responded accordingly.

[Telemark]

@Magiver

Why can’t you grasp that if you don’t treat people with respect that they will respond accordingly.

I think we all accept that. What we don’t accept is that arrest falls under the umbrella of “respond accordingly”. It simply doesn’t, without other factors being present.

[Rhythmdvl]

@Magiver

Why can’t you grasp that if you don’t treat people with respect that they will respond accordingly.

Placing someone under arrest – when the officer had no reason to remain (i.e., the question of identity was answered and he was on his way out) – is “acting accordingly.”

Really?

That’s a huge problem with the left wing – trying to legislate to protect peoples feelings.

Magiver, do you support a bill that makes it a crime to fail to demonstrate subservience and respect to all politicians, candidates, police officers, or any other member of the civil service?

Should there be a statute of limitations for the crime? Do you think that had the officer been called away, an arrest warrant should have been issued and Gates arrested an hour later?

[Rubystreak]

@Magiver

It should have been for someone with any brains.

Don’t you think that a person with brains would see an older man with a cane answering the door and realize, hey, this isn’t a cat burglar! If so, wouldn’t the first comment, if you were so interested in mutual respect and politeness, be “Hello, sir. We had a report of a breaking and entering on your home. Are you OK?” I mean, couldn’t an intelligent officer realize pretty fast, even without asking for ID, that this older, handicapped, and ill man was not a criminal, and treat him as a homeowner instead? Once you establish a rapport, you could ask the man’s name, and it would then be easy to check if he were, in fact, the homeowner, if you felt like you needed to. Or even ask for ID, couching it as, “I just have to check, sir, it’s merely a formality, I hope you understand.” I doubt, had the officer taken that tack, that he would have had a confrontation with Dr. Gates.

[magellan01]

Sheeze. It seems that we all (?) can agree that if the cops get a call that two people may be breaking into a house that they should follow up on it. Quickly. It also seems reasonable that when they get there they should ask to see the ID of the people they see. If no one is around, the logical thing to do is ring the bell, and just to play it safe, ask for some ID. Does anyone think those are unreasonable steps. here, it got out of hand, why? Well, I wasn’t there. But it seems most reasonable from what I’ve read that Gates copped a huge fucking attitude, reading racism into the cops behavior when there was none. When the officer was leaving and Gates followed him out, abusing him, there IS a point that the abuse rises to a level that the cop can and should slap the bracelets on him. So, until I have more evidence to the contrary, fuck gates and his Black guy + Cop = Racism.

[jayjay]

I would say that the level of “abuse” that would justify arrest would be threats or if Dr. Gates actually touched him. Otherwise, no. You can’t arrest people for calling you names. Period. It’s not illegal, therefore it’s not subject to arrest.

Can you name ANYTHING that the professor did that would be illegal and therefore subject him to arrest?

[magellan01]

@jayjay

I would say that the level of “abuse” that would justify arrest would be threats or if Dr. Gates actually touched him. Otherwise, no. You can’t arrest people for calling you names. Period. It’s not illegal, therefore it’s not subject to arrest.

Can you name ANYTHING that the professor did that would be illegal and therefore subject him to arrest?

I’m not a lawyer, but I’d imagine that cursing a cop up and down has limits. Is there some law the covers the treatment of a police officer in the line of duty? I think so… but I don’t know. But even if there isn’t, there’s a point where the cop wouldn’t be wrong in considering the action to be disturbing the peace.

[Richard_Parker]

@magellan01

I’m not a lawyer, but I’d imagine that cursing a cop up and down has limits. Is there some law the covers the treatment of a police officer in the line of duty? I think so… but I don’t know. But even if there isn’t, there’s a point where the cop wouldn’t be wrong in considering the action to be disturbing the peace.

Discussed here.

[Rhythmdvl]

@jayjay

Can you name ANYTHING that the professor did that would be illegal and therefore subject him to arrest?

He didn’t treat the cop with respect.

[Deeg]

@Richard_Parker

Criticism, even heated ranting, is not harassment in the legal sense.

There are lot of cases on when mere words directed at police officers can constitute disorderly conduct. In some states, you can flip off an officer, or yell that them in public, so long as you’re not directly interfering with their duties. In other states, you cannot do so in public. But I don’t think any court has found that verbally criticizing police officers on your own property is conduct that can be prohibited.

I disagree. If your boss walked into your office and followed you around, screaming the whole time, most of us would consider that harassment. If the officer acted professionally up to the end (and that’s a big ‘if’ which I cannot prove one way or the other) then Gates IMO was way out of line. Cops work for us and at least deserve the respect that all employees deserve.

[Richard_Parker]

@Deeg

@Richard Parker

Criticism, even heated ranting, is not harassment in the legal sense

I disagree.

This isn’t a matter for opinion. It is a question of what the law is. In MA, harassment is defined as follows:

In order to prove the defendant guilty of criminal harassment, the Commonwealth must prove four things beyond a reasonable doubt:

First, the Commonwealth must prove that over a period of time, the defendant knowingly engaged in a pattern of conduct or series of acts involving at least three incidents directed at a specific person, here the complainant. The Commonwealth must show that the defendant intended to target the complainant with harassing conduct on at least three occasions.

Second, the Commonwealth must prove that those acts were of a kind that would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress. Emotional distress that is merely trifling or passing is not enough to satisfy this element. The emotional distress must be markedly greater than the level of uneasiness, nervousness, unhappiness or the like which are commonly experienced in day to day living; it must entail a serious invasion of the victim’s mental tranquility.

Third, the Commonwealth must prove that those acts did cause the complainant to become seriously alarmed.

Fourth, the Commonwealth must prove that the defendant took those actions willfully and maliciously. Willful conduct is intentional, not accidental or mistaken. The Commonwealth does not have to prove that the defendant intended a harmful consequence, only that he intended the act leading to a harmful consequence.

Obviously, for multiple reasons, the scenario you describe is not harassment. Case closed.

[Rubystreak]

@Deeg

I disagree. If your boss walked into your office and followed you around, screaming the whole time, most of us would consider that harassment. If the officer acted professionally up to the end (and that’s a big ‘if’ which I cannot prove one way or the other) then Gates IMO was way out of line. Cops work for us and at least deserve the respect that all employees deserve.

I can’t really get away from my boss in my workplace. Was there anything stopping the officer from just walking away from Dr. Gates? Ignoring his diatribe and just leaving?

[Frylock]

@cricetus

Well, one thing that has been resolved is that many of you would be really ineffective as cops.

Which of us, and why? I think it’s important that you cite specific statements when explaining why.

[Frylock]

@Rhythmdvl

He didn’t treat the cop with respect.

That’s illegal?

[Frylock]

@Magiver

He owes the officers an apology.

I do think, from what I’ve read, that Gates wronged the officers. They, in turn, wronged him. I tend to be more seriously critical of the officers, since they were the ones with more power and responsibility in the situation.

But as far as I can tell, no one in this situation did the right thing.