Was Gates arrested for criminal harassment? IIR he was arrested for disorderly conduct which has a lower bar. According to this site it includes with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm which is at least close to what Gates appeared to be doing. But I’m not interested in splitting legal hairs. If both parties had acted professionally then this would be a non-story.
I’d have more empathy for Gates if the cops had acted on their own volition (instead of responding to a call). He was raging at the wrong people.
No, he wasn’t. But that isn’t what we were disagreeing about. To refresh:
RP: Criticism, even heated ranting, is not harassment in the legal sense.
Deeg: I disagree. [Gives example of how criticism could be harassment.]
RP: [cites definition of harassment.]
Yes, which is why I wrote: “There are lot of cases on when mere words directed at police officers can constitute disorderly conduct. In some states, you can flip off an officer, or yell that them in public, so long as you’re not directly interfering with their duties. In other states, you cannot do so in public. But I don’t think any court has found that verbally criticizing police officers on your own property is conduct that can be prohibited.”
Fine. But if you don’t want to talk law, then you don’t get to make arguments about how far the First Amendment extends, which is what started this exchange.
And my point still stands. Harassing someone, whether that falls under “legal” harassment, disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, etc. is not protected by the First Amendment IMO.
Did you read the police report? What do you think he did that was harassment? He asked the officer’s name, he said he was racist, and said not to mess with him, essentially. Wow, that’s really beyond the pale. The officer, very early on in the encounter, admitted that he realized that Gates was the homeowner. At that point, he should have left. Just… left. Not told Gates to accompany him outside, where he knew damn well the “yelling” would continue, and thus give him the justification for a disorderly conduct arrest.
Really, if Gates had NOT been told by the officer to come outside, and had he not complied, he never would have been arrested, nor could he have been.
Yeah, not seeing harassment. Seeing a cop who didn’t like how Gates was talking to him. Gates was not being nice by any means, but that’s not illegal. The cop should have left once he realized that Gates was the homeowner. End of story.
There’s a difference between knowing something and being able to prove something. I’m sure the cop realized that a 50 year old bookish looking person wasn’t breaking and entering at 12:30 in the afternoon. However, the fact that Gates is old, crippled, and it was the middle of the day doesn’t preclude him actually robbing the house. Having Gates produce ID takes 30 seconds, and changes the probability from it being a robbery from .01% to 0%. It’s the thorough and proper thing to do.
Whether or no popping off to a cop should get you arrested is a different debate than if Gates is the subject of racism. Rightly or wrongly, publically ranting at a cop is going to get you arrested for disorderly conduct no matter if you are white, black, or blue. There’s no evidence to suggest that Gates was treated any differently because of his skin color. He sure as hell is getting treated differently in the aftermath though.
I don’t know where we’re miscommunicating, so I’ll give this one last shot. Yes, those crimes involve conduct the First Amendment does not protect. No, Gates did not commit any of those crimes. The closest he comes to is disorderly conduct, and as I said, I don’t think any state allows verbal criticism in one’s home to count as disorderly conduct.
This is definitely not true in my experience. When I was at grad school at James Madison University, drunken frat boys (yes I know there are fraternities who don’t do this habitually) would jeer and verbally abuse both campus police and Harrisonburg police when they would come in to ask them to keep it down or to arrest someone who was drunk in public (on the street on campus or off) or attempting to drive off drunk. As long as the frat brothers stayed on the frat house property, the police just went about their business.
This is 19 years ago, so maybe things have changed since then. Maybe there are even fraternities there with African American members now, but I don’t recall any at that time.
I was the coordinator of a “free ride home service” for students who had over-imbibed, so I spent more time around the frat houses on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights than I would normally like to.
Right. That’s what I said. After he ascertained that Gates was the homeowner, he should have left. He told Gates to come outside AFTER he saw his ID, and then, because he was yelling outside, the cop arrested him for disorderly conduct. That seems highly unnecessary to me.
I do feel sorry for the officer, because “Racist!” is a powerful attack, and he was just doing his job. He didn’t deserve such treatment.
Having said that, he should have been able to take it and walk away. As the one in authority, that was his responsibility. Instead, he arrested Gates for disorderly conduct when his actions most likely did not rise to that level. Stupid, and a failure at his job.
I also don’t think this situation has anything to do with racism, except for the fact that “Racist!”, especially coming from Gates who can make a huge stink about it in public, is a more powerful verbal attack than a white man could have used on the officer. If a white man did come up with a similarly powerful verbal attack, I suspect it would have played out the same.
The entirety of the conduct for which he was arrested occurred inside his house therefore, not in public. He was arrested as soon he stepped out onto the porch – because he hadn’t done anything for which he could be arrested while he was indoors (without a warrant) but once he was outside he was fair game. It was a sleazy tactic and legal hairsplitting and I’d say a reasonable argument could be made for false arrest.
That he was “just doing his job” (worst excuse ever) doesn’t absolve him of being a racist. There’s no evidence that he isn’t a racist, and circumstantial evidence that he his actions were strongly tinged with both institutionalized and societal racist overtones. I don’t feel sorry for him being called a racist. He’s a big boy. If it’s not true, then no skin off his back. If it’s true, then this ought to be a time when he reflects upon himself and fixes his brokenness.
Since he’s now refusing to meet with Gates or apologize to him, my inclination to feel sorry for him is about nil.
Huh? “Doing his job” is not being used as an excuse for anything.
He needs no excuse for responding to a call and insisting on seeing ID. Saying that he was doing his job is a description, not an excuse.
In return, he was called a racist by someone with the power to make a big deal out of the accusation.
At that point, he should have been able to walk away. He couldn’t. Even then, “doing his job” is not being used as an excuse, because the arrest does not seem to be part of his job at all. Unjustified arrests are not part of the job of a police officer.
There is evidence that Gates injected race into the situation by calling the officer a racist, and is now lying about what happened.
Indeed, Gates’ current story makes no sense. Initially it was clear Gates was angry about perceived racial profiling. He said as much himself. When he calmed down Gates must have realized the officer was perfectly justified in coming to his house and asking for ID, so he changed his story to only caring about the officer not giving his badge number.
There is no evidence that the officer is racist. Exactly what action makes you think he is?
“Racist!” is a serious accusation these days (as it should be). I am amazed you don’t think it should bother him if it isn’t true.
Especially considering how many people will just assume it is true. As you appear to have done.
Actually, it is one of the most powerful verbal attacks that could have been used on the officer, especially coming from Gates.
I think it’s highly unlikely, as a cop, that it’s the worst thing that he’ll ever be called.
Well, he’s a white man in America. Whether he’s an overt racist is debatable. What isn’t debatable is that he has grown to adulthood in a racist society and carries the imprint of that social learning. It’s possible that he’s a committed anti-racist but in my experience, such people don’t generally go into law enforcement, for a lot of reasons. Meanwhile, there are numerous examples of a strong racist sentiment fomenting in police bureaus around the country, like Philadelphia’s.
Do you really need to go there? It’s a pretty ridiculous thing to say. I agree that “racist” is a very serious thing to say, but then, why live down to that accusation? Because that’s what the officer did-- he gave tons of credence to the allegation by behaving as he did. He should have just walked away.
The miscommunication might have occurred when you brought up the legal definition of harassment. If (always that qualifier) Gates followed the cops while they were leaving and was verbally assaulting them then yes I believe it would count as disorderly conduct. I wasn’t there so I don’t know if Gates crossed the line from “criticism” to “assault” but it sounds like the charge of disorderly conduct was not completely unwarranted. That’s where are opinions differ.