The Buffalo (New York) Police were filmed pushing an Old Guy to the ground. It was horrifying in that he fell backward, landed on the concrete and began bleeding, reportedly from the ear. Then the city suspended two policemen and ordered an investigation. Then the rest of the unit (fifty-something guys?) resigned from the unit (but not from their jobs) to protest the … investigation? The suspension? Something.
I am spring-loaded in the anti-police position. At the moment it is easy to cram all these incidents From all over the country together in our minds. But I think the issue here is more complex than it seems.
I like Rachel Maddow but I am afraid she really did a poor job of talking to the Buffalo mayor about this. The mayor convinced me there is a lot going on.
The Old Guy is what you would call “active in the community.” He has a history of going to demonstrations and so on. Nothing wrong with that, but also he was not some Random Guy Walking His Dog. He got in the way of the police on purpose.
The policeman pushed him. Think what you will, bu the policeman did not a leg sweep to purposely throw him to the ground. He used a stiff arm, not the most aggressive move.
The Old Guy fell. He cracked open his head (and that was really scary). The policeman who pushed him kept walking. (That looked very bad too.) But the police had medics and in a minute or two they were rending aid and calling for support.
It was the job of the police to maintain a line. You do not want a policeman to be alone and surrounded. You do this by keeping a line. You are not supposed to stop, even to render aid. That is someone else’s job.
Of course the police (or an outside agency) needs to investigate this. Probably the policemen who did the pushing need to be suspended. The Police Union has no legitimate complaint on these point. Encouraging the others to quit was just a stupid escalation making a tough situation worse.
I wish the Old Guy well. (Anyone know his status?) God bless troublemakers, we need more of them. But his cracking his head was the next thing to an accident. He sought out a confrontation with a policeman and he got it. I sort of suspect he would be very pleased with the footage of the event going viral. (Assuming he is not dead or something.)
Seems to me there is more to this than meets the eye. Or perhaps there is more to this than you hear from some media outlets. We ought not to conflate all these brutality incidents together.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
A 74 yr old man, being purposely, and forcefully shoved, by a policeman is in no way, ‘next thing to an accident’. His history has zero to do with what occurred here.
They need to be far more than ‘suspended’. The dayS when that would have placated have now passed, I’m afraid.
And good riddance to any squad that thinks this is defensible. Not one of them should be rehired. All this action does is convince people it’s the whole swamp that needs clearing. If they’re gonna make it easy for you, take them at their word and send them off.
That hard blue line is the very core of the problem. The force either gives into to these bullies or decides its time for things to change. And the entire world would seem to be screaming for that change.
Police forces who believe that, once again, the ‘appearance‘ of doing something, suspensions, laying of charges, but no convictions, harsh words and empty promises are simply NOT going to fly any more.
If they can’t tell something has changed then they deserve to go the way of the dinosaurs, in my opinion.
The policemen resigned from the riot squad, not from the department. They were just making a stink with little real impact. The police union is having a hissy fit.
From what I saw (and I may be wrong) the policeman was not especially crazed and violent. Someone got in his face as he was trying to keep moving. He did not shoot. He did not mace. He did not taser. He did not leg sweep. He stiff-armed. Frankly is seemed to be a reflex as much as anything else.
It is important to note that when a 74-year old man comes up to you in a tense situation you do not know he is a 74-year old man.
Seems to me (and I am willing to be corrected) that the result (the guy being seriously injured) was not the intent. That is why I called it “the next thing to an accident.”
He wasn’t crazed, didn’t mace, taser, leg sweep, didn’t know how old he was, a tense situation and only stiff armed…is pretty weak tea my friend. Reflex? Is just laughable, honestly.
Cops aren’t given free hand to send people to hospital for ‘being in their face’.
If you see the tape and this is your take, I Really don’t think you’re seeing with your eyes, and there’s very little point in arguing.
…there is drone footage just prior to the incident taking place. (Footage is not synced up)
The only way you could reasonably characterize that as a “tense situation” is if those police were hyped up on meth. The police outnumbered the crowd by about 5 to 1. There were about 12 protestors there in total? One of “protestors” was having fun leap-frogging over the concrete balls? A handful of signs?
What was tense about that situation? There was ZERO chance of being surrounded. They weren’t charging into a riot. A handful of people were standing on the stairs.
It seems to me (and I am willing to be corrected) that I don’t give a fuck what the intent was or not. There was no good reason to push the man. Even if the situation was tense (and it wasn’t) that isn’t an excuse for poor self-control. A stiff arm is a fucking stiff arm: and a stiff arm is an aggressive move that can and has killed people. It shouldn’t be used lightly and it shouldn’t be used in a situation like this that could easily have been avoided.
Its very easy to play with words to make something sound “not as bad” as it actually was. But this was bad. A man is seriously injured and he might die because an officer of the law did something really fucking stupid.
Intent is an important part of a crime. I am sorry you do not give a fuck about it. I am sorry We have descended to cursing.
A stiff-arm seems to be the very definition of a defensive move. Had the policeman wanted to hurt the guy he would have done something else.
Now let me look at the drone footage. I suspect we can all agree that all these cameras are great.
…can you explain why I should give a fuck about intent in this case? Does it matter if he intended to crack the old-man’s skull or if he did it as a matter of careless disregard? The end result is the same. The charges might be different: but we aren’t debating what he should be charged with: only whether or not “this is more complex than it seems.” It doesn’t seem to be very complex at all.
Why does it matter if the policeman wanted to hurt the guy or not?
And the “stiff arm” used here was not used as a defensive move. The old man wasn’t a threat. He was starting to move back. The officer just pushed him over. Its the very definition of a non-defensive move.
Thank you for the wonderful link. But it is not drone footage. It is a wonderfully edited production that used more than a single drone’s camera.
The police certainly seem to be living up to the narrative of being overdressed and ready for trouble (or ready to cause trouble). Was the citizen carrying a motorcycle helmet? Truly it is a shame he was not wearing it.
How long did it take for the police render aid? Much has been made of the policemen walking by. How long did it take for the ambulance to arrive?
Certainly this is worthy of an investigation. If the Proper Authorities think they can make a charge stick, then it is worthy of charges. But compared to the pure insanity we have seen in the last week or two from other police departments, this is certainly at the low end of the big leagues.
It’s this mentality that is the problem. This old man’s life is less important than continuing to walk forward. Less important than whatever job you’ve been given.
The police need to stop the mentality that we are impediments to them doing their jobs, and if we impede them, they are justified in attacking us.
…of course it was drone footage. It also contained other footage as well (not synced up as I stated) but drone footage was definitely there. Were you expecting a time stamp?
Did you see the size of the crowd? Did you see the guy playing leap frog on the giant balls? That was the most boring protest I’ve seen in my life. Some of the protestors looked like they were falling asleep. Can you explain why you think that that situation was “tense?”
Should we all walk around with motorcycle helmets lest we run into an officer of the law who wants to “defensively” stiff arm me into the concrete?
Just Asking Questions?
You started the thread. The premise you presented was " The Situation with the Police in Buffalo is More Complex than it Seems." But how does answering any of these questions make the situation more or less complex?
We see the exact moment the man starts to be looked after. A person in a green uniform (probably National Guard) starts tending to him after the line of police moves forward. So how does that change anything?
I disagree. This is representative of the entire issue. The initial police statement stated that the old man “tripped.” If we didn’t have the video footage the story would have probably ended there. Even if there were witnesses history has shown that the word of the police would be taken over the words of a “protestor.” What we see here is exactly how police departments try to “cover things up.” How many times has this sort of thing happened out of the eyes of the cameras?
The solution to citizens allegedly “trying to be an impediment” isn’t to “defensively” stiff arm them so that they crack their skulls on concrete. And I can’t believe I’ve actually got to explain that to someone on a Sunday night.
I ask questions when I do not know things. I do not know how long it was between the citizen being pushed over and aid being rendered. The film was not clear on that. If aid was rendered quickly, that would be one thing. If a long time elapsed it would be another. Rachel Maddow made a big deal that the first two policemen did not render aid at once. I have no idea how long it took. That is why I asked.
Again I am very sorry if I did something wrong by asking.
I do not think everyone ought to be walking around with a motorcycle helmet lest we run into a policeman Who wants to “defensively” stiff-arm me into the street. Thank you for asking.
Yes, the police lied about the man tripping. Further the union guy is continuing to tell the same lie. It is wonderful that we have all this footage.
I do not know how many times this sort of thing has happened “out of the eyes of cameras.” Further, we are dealing with this case. I did not intend to talk about all the recent horrible events. I have repeatedly said we ought not to conflate all these incidents together.
…what else do you want to discuss? Your premise is that the situation with the police in Buffalo is more complex than it seems.
But the situation doesn’t seem very complex at all. The police pushed a man over that they had no business pushing over. They didn’t render aid immediately, in fact when an officer tried to render aid he was removed by another officer. The police then lied about this. And now people (like you) are trying to minimize what happened.
So its back to you: what is it we are missing? This doesn’t appear to be more complex than it seems at all. It doesn’t matter what the intent of the officer was. It doesn’t matter what the intent of the old man was. The police had no business “getting ready for war” when all they were dealing with was a handful of protestors, one of them playing leapfrog on a giant concrete ball.
I am not sure how quickly they rendered aid. If you have some information on this key point I would welcome it. Also I am not clear on the concept that the police had no business pushing the man out of the way. The policemen may not have intended to push him down. After all there are better way to do that than a stiff-arm. Yes the police lied.
Obviously the intent matters. If the intent was to throw the man down in order to cause a concussion and death then the charge would be attempted murder. If the intent was to get the guy to move away go home and obey the curfew then there would (I suppose) be no charges at all.
I am simply maintaining that “The Situation with the Police in Buffalo is More Complex than it Seems.” I am sorry if I was unclear on that.
Please excuse me. I have some work to do.
It was two cops doing the pushing. Also notice one cop had his baton in both hands to reinforce the push. The old man was pushed very hard backwards, not to the side out of the way.