Well, shit. See, that was me in the comfort of my own home trying to come up with the safest common-sense rules of surviving a police stop, and I wasn’t even carrying a firearm, and apparently I STILL get killed.
So the key is to memorize this elaborate dance of submission before leaving the house, and be capable of performing it from memory while processing the jolt of blue-light adrenaline that keeps whispering “you don’t even have a busted tail-light, he might just be having a very bad day.”
Joke’s on you though. I’m white, I just got a verbal warning and “have a nice day.”
I’m driving in the HOV lane, with a passenger in the vehicle, among a bunch of other motorists who clearly do not have passengers, also in the HOV lane. We come up on an officer parked on the side of the road, and in response, a line of cars immediately exit the lane-- I choose to stay, because I belong there. I’m actually close to my exit, so I eventually signal, make my way over and arrive in the exit lane, where I’m going to make the next right turn. I then realize this cop had decided to ignore and speed past the other vehicles, but also make his way onto the exit, in the direction going left…until he decides he’s going to turn right, too. I now know what’s going to happen next, so I’m just waiting for him to turn on the lights, which of course he does, after following me through two lights, a few streets later.
I pull off the main road, roll down all the windows, engine off, hands on wheel, etc. and wait to be greeted by the officer. He looks in the car and realizes I have a passenger (so I did belong in the HOV), and asks me for my license and registration. I tell him where they both are, ask if its okay to get them and he says ok. He goes to his car and returns in a few minutes to express that he’s surprised I have a totally clean record (:rolleyes:)…unless I found a way to get out of something, somehow (:rolleyes:). He then says I looked like I was trying to get away from him, and that’s why he pulled me over (:rolleyes: mind you, I stopped for those two lights we both passed). I asked for clarification, and he said that I changed lanes a bit quickly (:rolleyes:). Dumbfounded, I told him I was in the HOV with a passenger, signaled to get over and made my way to the exit. He says, yeah, you didn’t cut anyone off or anything and I didn’t see anyone brake, but it was a bit too fast and it was a long exit lane where I didn’t need to be in it that early (:rolleyes: how early is too early to be in the lane? If I’m actually trying to elude a cop, wouldn’t I cut into a lane as late as possible?). Lost for words, I’m sitting there thinking how ridiculous this is, but I go ahead and apologize and express that I was just going home (which he can verify with my license, as I’m about three minutes away). He then tells me yeah, but I’d be surprised how often people try to get away from him (:rolleyes:). How they think they can outrun him, but they really can’t (:rolleyes:). At this point, I have no clue why this stop is still taking place, but he’s clearly either fishing or trying to prove some point, so I just express that I believe him, but repeat that I was just going home and have no interest in running from police. After he does some more talking, he gives me a warning for an unsafe lane change, then tells me that he thinks my window tint may be dark, so he gives me an inspection ticket, as well.
The cop was young/white, but I’m not even going to say this was specifically race-related. What was clear, was that this cop had some agenda and was looking for a cause. If all my i’s weren’t dotted and my t’s crossed, that situation could have EASILY escalated, and I feel comfortable in saying, much of it would have rested on his approach. For all I know, he could have been forcing the issue because I wasn’t reacting the way he had anticipated. I’d have loved if this situation was like yours, where it concluded with “[He] cheerfully commented that he could tell already that what he suspected wasn’t the case”…because what he had dreamed up, very clearly wasn’t the case. I think it would have been within the realm of reason (arguably) for anyone else to lose their patience with that stop and I can see where someone with a bit less impulse control, who has something minor, says the wrong thing, makes the wrong gesture, actually rolls their eyes, etc., ends up in some news headline the following day, with the internet analyzing why they deserved what they got.
You’re accusing me of not reading? You just tried to analogize a cop to someone’s superior at work. That is an utterly ridiculous comparison in almost every way.
Because you place the burden on the person who a cop initiated interaction with to engage in pleasantries in order to prove they are not deserving of extra harsh treatment or presenting a threat. That is extra respect given most people don’t bother doing that for some random stranger or person they don’t know. Especially one who might possibly issue them a ticket or arrest them. Re-read what I said. I am not advocating disrespect towards anyone.
Right, but that shouldn’t be a prerequisite for such an interaction going well. This is what you keep missing. Cops are paid to be professionals who keep the peace. They are not supposed to dole out extra punishment because someone is not being respectful, or even if they are being a dick.
You’d be 100% wrong. Have you ever known a chronic alcoholic? They often appear and act fairly normal when speaking.
It’s an issue because people are biased and cops are paid to look past those biases when enforcing the law so that it’s done in an even handed and fair way. I don’t have the option to not be Black, or to not look like some guy who gave him trouble last week. Just by virtue of being someone who society has a dim view of, I shouldn’t have to take extra steps and precautions to prove I am not a bad guy just because a cop is predisposed to thinking I might be.
I suspect you are full of shit on this. Everyone has a breaking point, and I suspect given your posting history that you would not be cheerfully complying with every inane question a cop asked you if you were routinely subject to searches, tests, and harassment.
Even putting aside the constitutional issues, you’d be fine with the cops pulling you over every day for no reason? Just wondering why you think we require probably cause and have the 4th amendment? Do you think maybe it’s because the above example that you suspect is no big deal is in fact a big deal?
But everyone is always doing something wrong. You apparently swerved like you were drunk. I am sure that has happened before too. Would you be okay with being fined every time you exceed the speed limit, make some innocuous mistake, have your prescription drugs inside an unauthorized container, or 1000 other things regular people do all the time?
But that is not really accurate in most cases. Blacks aren’t more likely to be using drugs for example. Additionally, the actual causative factor is often socioeconomic rather than the visual cues people associate with certain things. More importantly, even if that were true, it’s not an excuse to treat people as anything other than individuals irrespective of their immutable characteristics.
But see, it’s not actually the way the world works. Again, do you think it’s okay if teachers grade annoying students more harshly? Or if politicians raise taxes on the people who didn’t vote for them, or those who criticize them harshly? Do such things happen? Yes. Just like murder happens. However, the difference is that we don’t excuse unprofessional behavior because someone is being rude. I fully understand that in the history of food service, rude customers have had their food adulterated by wait staff who were annoyed. However, I don’t excuse a waiter spitting in someone’s food even if that person is a terrible human being. Such a thing will get you fired immediately in any restaurant with any standards whatsoever.
He shouldn’t have the ability to cut people slack if he is going to use that ability in a unfair manner.
Because that is part of being a professional. Professionalism dictates you rise above pettiness and vindictiveness. Do you think doctors try less hard to save the life of someone who is a jerk? Do you think a soldier would not try to save a fellow soldier just because he personally disliked him? No. And no one would be okay with a soldier saying that he declined to risk his life for a fellow soldier just because they guy was a jerk. That’s the difference. I get that in real life people will fail to meet the minimum standard of professionalism, but we typically don’t make excuses for them. We don’t say, sorry Bergdahl, we’re not gonna look for you because we think you deserted us. We don’t say, sorry Clinton, I think you were a bad president, so I am not gonna do my best work on this bypass surgery.
My post wasn’t intended to be an outline of what professionalism means for cops despite your gross mischaracterization of what I actually wrote.
Black middle-class man keeps his tail between his legs and doesn’t get shot dead by cop! News at eleven!
(I’m just assuming that you’re Black, Starving Artist. If not, all I can do is look askance and wonder why in tarnation you think this long diatribe has any possible relevance whatsoever.)
If you harbor strong, possibly hidden, feelings of retaliation and violence towards any part of society, or just like fights, entering that profession is your dream job.
We have been militarizing our police across this country since 9/11/2001, and possibly before that. We have provided them with basically the same tools and equipment we provide our military. We have taught them that the best way to enter a house is by throwing “flash-bang” grenades, bashing down the door, and rushing in with weapons drawn and adrenaline pumping.
At the same time, they are not receiving anywhere near the same training that the military receives for performing similar jobs, We have allowed them to promote an atmosphere and mindset of doing “whatever it takes to go home” at the end of their shift. Cops refer to non-cops as “civilians” rather than fellow citizens, setting themselves as “other”.
The problem of police shooting issue isn’t fixed by either blaming those who are getting shot or the police, even if there are blatantly illegal actions. It’s the result of a vicious cycle of citizens lacking confidence in the integrity and competence of law enforcement, so they react, in a best case, cautiously, and in a worst case, aggressively. Then police, aware of being seen as the enemy are entering situations with more trepidation, leading to them making more mistakes and these mistakes are exacerbated by social media.
So how do we respond? Rather than addressing the self-reinforcing cycle, we see more lawlessness and more issues, so we put more cops on the streets, leading to insufficient training or even people who shouldn’t be cops (predjudice, mental issues, bullies, etc), and that just leads to more mistakes or badly motivated decisions, and it makes the problem worse. Then we see more mistakes, make the jobs for cops riskier, either directly by being attacked by citizens, or at risk of being sued, and we drive off potentially good law enforcement officers that have to be filled by less and less qualified candidates.
Really, I think the solution is simple. First, don’t just expect, but require, more of our law enforcement officers, and be willing to foot the bill for it. Expect better educations, expect more training, higher standards, impeccable ethics and moral, and pay them accordingly. Law enforcement officers should be among the most outstanding members of our society. I’d rather have half as many top-quality candidates getting paid twice as much than what I often see, even in my area where there’s fairly low crime (especially low violent crime). How is it that often I’ve known more about my rights than the officer I’ve been dealing with? And I’m a middle-class white male whose worst offence is a speeding ticket. Police should be the ALLIES of the law abiding citizen. They shouldn’t be trying to get people to unintentially waive rights to try to give out an extra citation or whatever. And I know that’s the minority, but just one questionably ethic officer can do a lot to break down trust.
And second, to us as citizens, we have a responsibility to handle these situations better. Yes, I know my rights, but nothing makes me more frustrated than seeing someone who is using their rights to be a dick to a policeman. You’re HURTING the cause, not helping. I can give minimal answers in a traffic stop while still being polite and respectful. And When things DO happen, we TOO have a responsiblity not to escalate it, and to hold those officers responsible. We also have a responsibility not to overreact to situations before all the facts have come in. Sometimes the police shootings are absolutely appropriate, sometimes they mishandled the situation but are still justified, and sometimes they really fucked up. Don’t riot or protest or start spewing vitriol or, on the otherside, just take the cops’ side until you have enough information to judge. It just further divides and makes things worse.
Really, this is something that just takes a little bit from each of us. We’ve had years of eroding away at it from the drug wars and the high crime of a few decades ago, and it’s taunt younger generations unfortunate lessons and the reaction from law enforcement is to just crack down more rather than try alternative approaches.
If we look just at the facts for a moment - disregarding emotion, just looking at facts - then:
Isn’t it true that, generally speaking, escalating a situation by fleeing or violently resisting a police officer, rarely *improves *the suspects’ chances of survival?
and
Isn’t it true that, generally speaking, compliance with a police officer is statistically more likely to lead to survival than violent non-compliance? (Now, before someone cites instances of compliant people getting shot anyway, wouldn’t they have been shot if they were non-compliant?)
Hey everybody, notably blacks: Enough is enough. Just step n fetch for the cops and no one gets hurt! Don’t make no eye contact, show them the palms of your hands at all times, only say “Yessuh” and “Nosuh,” move real slow and let them handle you however they see fit with no backtalk. Oh and smile *real *big so they can see you’re friendly! Remember-- it’s YOUR responsibility to make sure they don’t have to kill you! Always assume the gun *will * be used, so your window is short-- make sure you make the policeman happy immediately and for the duration of your being handled.
You know, if those of you on the anti-cop side of the argument could plead your case without accusing everyone else of being racist caricatures, it might help.
Proposed solution #1: outlaw policing for revenue. Cops should never feel pressured to issue more tickets and fines, which just leads to more conflict and potential for violence. It also disproportionately affects people of color, since cops will issue tickets and fines to those least likely to present any substantial defense.
Congress should pass a bill requiring that any funds from law-enforcement issued tickets go to some charitable fund or other fund outside of the control of their local government.
I assume this is at least somewhat directed at me since you posted it right after my post. I’m not anti-cop. My cousin is a county sheriff and my brother-in-law is a parole officer. I’m worried sick about both of them right now. But hearing white people telling black people who are being unnecessarily killed by police in disproportionate numbers right now what they’re doing wrong is the very definition of arrogance and privilege.
“Just step n fetch it, boy, and they won’t have to put you down.”
Police are supposed to be fucking trained to de-escalate situations without killing people unless absolutely necessary. I don’t care if it’s a big hulking guy fighting back-- if two or three trained officers of the law can’t detain him without fucking killing him, something is wrong with them, not the dead guy, and I don’t care how much marijuana he got busted selling last year or who he stuck his dick in 20 years ago.
Police are human beings who expect to be able to do their job and go home to their families at night. As human beings they have the right to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary, and their putting on a uniform doesn’t negate that right.
Good luck telling a grieving widow “Well, there must have been something wrong with your husband, since he couldn’t detain that big hulking guy and got shot.”
I’d give the exact same advice to anyone, of any color, race, gender identity, nationality, or creed. If a cop pulls you over, stops you, however the encounter starts, if you want to make it through the encounter alive and free, it is incumbent on you to behave in a calm and controlled manner, follow the officer’s instructions, make no sudden movements, speak calmly and respectfully, let the officer know if you’re going to move your hands anywhere he might possibly not expect them to go, and, if you’re carrying a weapon, tell him exactly where it is and offer to allow him to secure it himself.
Criticism of cops doesn’t mean you’re anti-cop, just like you’re attempting to argue that the analysis of black people’s actions when confronted with police, doesn’t make you racist.
That said, people are pleading their cases without accusing everyone else of being racist, but if a degree of prejudice is apparent, it should be involved in the discussion.
Here’s the thing: In the news over the past year or so, there are several examples of black people being killed by police where deadly force wasn’t necessary. And those are just the ones in the news. Of course cops have the right to use deadly force when it’s necessary, no one’s denying that. Was it necessary to kill Tamir Rice? Was it necessary to kill Eric Garner? Was it necessary to kill Philando Castile? Was it necessary to kill Alton Sterling?
A lot of these cops are killing kids, unarmed black men, and black men who are legally carrying. If they can’t detain them without killing them, then yes, there’s something wrong with them and they should either be trained better or not be a cop.
Had he NOT told the cop he had a handgun, and had been shot, what would inevitably have happened is that he’d have been blamed for not telling the cop he had a gun. After the fact it would have been claimed the cop saw the gun and thought the victim was “going for it,” and the usual apologists would have said “If only he’d informed the police officer he had a gun, which is what you’re supposed to do, this wouldn’t have happened.”
The shooting of Rice was unfortunate but justified. All the officers knew was that a suspect had been seen brandishing a weapon in the park. The security footage shows that Rice appeared to reach for the weapon in his waistband as the officers approached. We’ll never know what was going through Rice’s mind, but the officers at that time had no way of knowing it was a toy and every reason to believe their lives were in danger. If the cops had had more information the shooting could’ve been avoided, but they acted on the assumption that if the gun was real and they didn’t shoot that they’d be the ones leaving in a body bag.
Unnecessary accident, but the police were not in the wrong.
Much like the Rice affair; unnecessary, but likely justifiable. In both cases, the victim was known to be armed, and the shooter had reason to believe he was in a him-or-me situation.
