A bit of a tangent, and maybe I shouldn’t even bring it up. . .but I seldom see analogies work out on message boards. Pay particular attention to analogies over the next few days, take notice when someone uses one, and watch how things deteriorate. People will largely abandon the topic to begin arguing the validity of the analogy, nitpick something about it, or suggest a different one, which others will then discuss/nitpick. Notice how often people in the thread will say, “You know what? I never thought of it like that!” And by how often, I mean, not at all.
Analogies are fine when explaining things to friends and children, but when it comes to making a point on a message board, I find them to be an ineffective way to convince people. I’ve grown tired of debating on message boards - it’s a great deal of effort for little or no benefit to anyone - but if I did, I’d avoid analogies.
Back to the topic at hand: I agree that something needs to be done about the number of people shot by police officers with questionable justification. It’s like the lunatics are running the asylum.
What is the evidence that a substantial percentage of these people were fighting the cops?
What is the principle that dictates that an innocent person should meekly obey any orders issued by someone claiming to be a member of the police department, aside from “might makes right”?
No. Just no. I for one do not wish to live in a nation where the police are free to kill almost at will with zero repercussions. And I don’t care to be told that this is the price for disobeying the police. “Do what you’re told and you won’t get hurt” are the words of a gangster, not a protector and servant.
The people who decide policy are not the police, it is (or should be) decided by the government of their jurisdiction. If the police don’t want to follow those rules, or think they can’t do their jobs without force being the #1 tool in their toolbox, then there’s the door. Go find another job. This is an allegedly free country, you can do anything you want. Go be a bouncer or an insurance salesman. We don’t owe you that job as a cop.
If I ever get stopped by the cops, you can be damned sure I’ll have my hands up, next to my face, and the conversation will go like this:
cop: Freeze! Show some ID!
me: I am freezing. I also heard the command “Show some ID”. Are you asking me to cease freezing and reach into my pocket? I will get exit the vehicle if you command me.
Nah, just kidding, I’d probably think “I might have a joint in the seat cushions” and then I’d die.
No, but it most definitely is their #2 tool (words first, then when necessary a weapon). And it has to be. And everyone knows it. They are not school gym teachers, they are dealing with adults who are supposed to know the rules. The problem is that the people they are dealing with think the rules are: You earn respect by defying anyone in authority. And the higher authority you defy the more ‘respect’ you earn. In other words, they live like they’re already in prison.
Respect is something you earn by obeying the rules, bettering yourself, and appreciating others. I have absolutely no sympathy (nor respect) for those that practice the above. Like I said, real simple.
The principal that the police are duly charged with keeping the peace and enforcing the law, and until they have a chance to check you out they have no way of knowing whether you’re innocent or not.
And why do you think cooperation with the police has to be done ‘meekly’. All you have to do is be respectful and follow their instructions. Pretty much like I assume you do with your superiors at work.
Here, lemme relate an instance in which I was stopped by the police recently. The officer appeared behind me and turned on his lights. I was in the inside lane and signaled I was changing to the outside lane, then kept the signal on until I got to the next intersection where I turned right onto a residential street to get out of traffic and pulled over to the curb. As I sat there wondering what I’d done wrong and how much this was gonna cost me (with both hands on the top of the wheel) the officer approached from behind and off to the side. As he approached he asked “How’re you doing this evening, sir?” I replied in a friendly and cheerful way “I’m good! How are you?” (Thereby signaling that an encounter with the police was not something I was particularly worried about, and therefore I was not likely up to no good and perhaps about to cause a problem.) He replied that he was fine and then cheerfully commented that he could tell already that what he suspected wasn’t the case. I had apparently veered over the yellow line near the median in the road I was on and he suspected that I had been drinking. I cheerfully apologized and told him I was sorry, I wasn’t aware that I had done that. So smiled and said that was fine, he could tell I hadn’t been drinking, but asked me just to be sure if I’d had anything to drink that evening. I assured him that all I’d had to drink was the Dr Pepper in the Big Gulp I held up for him to see. He smiled and said very good, thanks, he just wanted to be sure, and then we ended the episode cheerfully wishing each other a good night.
At no time during my encounter with this officer did I behave ‘meekly’ or subserviently. I was simply cheerful and cooperative and made it clear I wasn’t going to be a problem. Even if I’d gotten a ticket I would have maintained the same demeanor, because getting angry wouldn’t have gotten me out of the ticket and it would have put the officer on the defensive and cause him to become alert to the possibility of trouble. It might also have garnered me and even larger ticket than I would have gotten originally.
There is simply no way to win by becoming argumentative or combative with the police. So be friendly, cooperative, and follow instructions to a tee, and you’ll come out of it safe and in one piece. If the stop means you’re going to get a ticket or be arrested, then go ahead and take the ticket or submit to the arrest. You’re only going to make things worse by becoming combative. I’ve never known of a single instance where a cop said “I can see you’re upset/combative sir, so I’m just gonna let you go.” Life just doesn’t work that way.
I think we could reduce shootings by police if every death of someone who didn’t draw a weapon (and wasn’t say, at the time beating or strangling someone else) lead to an automatic indictment. If, as a cop, you knew you’d face a trial if you kill a suspect, you’d probably have a less itchy trigger finger.
If these killings don’t scare the fucking shit out of you and make you worry for your own well-being or someone in your family’s well-being, you’re a privileged m.f. I fall in that camp. I’m aware of that, and because of that I would never presume to tell black folks (because lets face it, they’re the ones being disproportionally killed by cops right now) what *they’re *doing wrong.
No one should be executed on site for resisting arrest. No one should be executed on site for demanding to know why they’re being forced to the ground. No one should be executed on site for a broken tail light and announcing there’s a legal firearm in the car. No one should be executed on site for fighting a cop.
But see, this highlights the fundamental difference in perspective. To analogize a cop to a work superior is laughable to most people. A cop isn’t your boss. You are confusing a cop’s command having the force of law with the social and practical dynamics that guide a employee/employer relationship. They are fundamentally different. Cops aren’t deserving of any extra respect by virtue of the law. In fact, the reason they are paid is typically because we can reasonable assume they are going to routinely be subject to disrespect on a regular basis. That’s the job. And we want them to do that job without allowing their personal feelings to impact how they enforce the law, and without routinely being unprofessional or violent because of the way people react to them.
We wouldn’t be okay with a teacher grading her disrespectful students more harshly. We wouldn’t be okay with a firemen refusing to put out fires caused by arson or negligence. We wouldn’t be okay with ER doctors refusing to save disrespectful people. With many if not most jobs, we expect professionalism to trump one’s hurt feelings.
But how much of this is based on what you look like and the context? The issue is that there is a good amount of privilege that exists in the ability for what you signal to be correctly interpreted by others as you intend. Society is such that a Black guy and a White guy both wearing hoodies are thought to be signaling different things. A Black guy driving a nice car in a rich neighborhood is interpreted differently from a White guy doing that same. The point being that you think your personal conduct is the sole motivator for how the cop behaved when the reality is that there are lots of independent external factors at play in most cases.
Don’t you see how suspect this conclusion is based on almost no interaction or evidence? Just based on you speaking a few words to him, he could tell you weren’t drunk? That makes little sense. He was just using questionable heuristics rather than hard evidence. The issue many have is that those short hands he used likely included many biases we all tend to pick up in life. Things like you being “nice” and “not Black”, and/or a hundred other things.
Now imagine you were subject to stop and frisk level of scrutiny that many minorities are. For example, the last time I got pulled over, I was not asked how I was doing. I, in fact, asked the officer that, and he didn’t really respond. But let’s take an even more extreme, but fully lawful hypothetical. Say this officer had you perform sobriety tests, then asked to search your car and give you a breathalyzer. How friendly would you have been? Now imagine such things happened to you on a regular basis. That’s the reality of many people in this county. A reality that makes it hard to most people to care about how the cops they assume is going to harass them, is doing.
How likely would you be to maintain that demeanor if you knew you couldn’t pay it, or if it would seriously fuck up your finances?
Also, why aren’t you outraged that your demeanor could mitigate or aggravate the amount of the ticket you receive? That’s 100% bullshit. Tickets are for unlawful conduct, not an appraisal of your friendliness. Being an asshole to a cop is not a generally ticket-able offense. I’m not one of these guys that thinks you should be a dick just because you can, but there should be no expectation of cooperation beyond following lawful orders.
And before you go on about how cops are people too and that’s how the world works, the fact is that it is generally not how professionals act. More importantly, even if we acknowledge that some small percentage of professionals will act in such a way despite our best efforts, we don’t normalize that behavior or make excuses for them. Why is the bar for the professionalism you expect of police so low?
Do you think you know my job better than me? Do you have access to the same information I do? Just comply…if I really am making it all up and flaking you…sue me…you’ll win in court…why take your life in your hands and fight the police? Just comply…
Back about 1970, I was a drunk passenger in a car driven by a drunk guy and the other passenger was drunk also.
The driver did not make a residential corner and ran through a big bush, across the lawn, clipped the corner of the house and ended up in the middle of the side lawn.
We were laughing, not trying to leave and knew jail was a big possibility. We knew that someone would have called the police. So we waited. Finished off the open beers and tried not to pee on ourselves.
The first police car had two officers. We found out later that is was an older officer and a rookies first nigh/day on the street.
Why the rookie was sent to the car and the old guy went to talk to the pissed off older owners of the house I’ll never understand unless the older LEO did not realize how ‘rookie’ and freaked out the new rookie was.
It did not help us to be sensible because he looked like Barnie Fife.
He had his revolver in a two handed grip and it was shaking and trembling all over the place. He started screaming, I mean SCREAMING at the driver to “FREEZE” and that if he moved he was going top blow his head off. With the next breath he told the driver to get out of the car right now and with the next breath he went back to the 'If you even think about moving I am going to blow your head off.
We had all stopped laughing, were not even smiling because we were not so drunk as to not know that this was not going to turn out well. Driver was looking mighty sick and was trying to get the cop to say which he should do. The rookie was still screaming his 2 statements one after the other and shaking & spitting spittle all over. Seemed worse & worse to us. We were sitting real still and not sure we all weren’t gonna get killed.
Apparently the older guy had noticed this and was coming over and started talking to the rookie as he got close enough. He got next to him and put his hand over the Rookies revolver ( they still used revolves back then in Tulsa ) and I noted that he put his thumb in front of the hammer. That was when I started breathing again I think.
We all got a free ride to the station and after forever, Billy ( driver ) had to stay and we were put on the sidewalk and on our own for getting back to where ever we wanted. It was suggested that we might want to beat the wrecker to the car if it was drivable and the owner did not want to bail it out. It was Billie’s car but they were not concerned with who’s it was. Billy had insurance and we were not running out on our responsibility.
Things were sure different between police and civilians back then. We all actually had Tulsa addresses.
I had never seen anyone go that nuts, not even in the military were things got crazy really fast in some of the places I was.
I am always really careful when I am talking shop with an LEO where we are in an adversarial discussion. I learned my lesson about letting the LEO lead the talk.
Actually , when we move to a new area, I put on my most ‘bad biker’ looking gear and Spot & I go visit the local LEO’s for a meet & greet. Get the CCW stuff talked about, who I am, where I live and how long I have been sober, invite them to drop buy to look at my other bikes, etc. Get them on my side or at least know that I am out there and I am not going to cause a problem no matter how I look. Works on about 90 percent of them and the rest still don’t like me but they now know who I am, where I stand on things and that is as good as we will ever be.
Does not work in a bigger place like Tulsa, all I could do was get to know the Eastside station guys.
I am just thankful that I have never run into a Barnie Fife type again where that part of them comes into play.
For the most part in a big town, I think I am in more automatic trouble then the guys in the ‘hood.’
I am so old now, I don’t look to scary but I still make a point to be known to the deputies & troopers that operate in my usual areas.
I still would rather have a Barnie than a thug to have to deal with that is really ready to kill because he is a power tripping asshat.
I have no idea how to fix this problem but there is one saying that I brought home from the military. I never loose my cool because I know that saying “Sir” to someone does not make them or me bullet proof.
I have almost lived through all the times things could go bad unless I live longer than it looks like I will. My son & his kids are in deep dodo I am afraid.
( Oh, this is all just a story, none of it is real but it was fun to write it. No way could I pull it off in real life. )
Nonsense. I’m illustrating how to interact with a cop in a respectful and rational way without having to be be meek in the process. Did you take enough time to even read the comment I was posting to?
We also want world peace and an end to hunger. But here in the real world, cops are as deserving of respect as anyone else. (Don’t know where you came up with my supposedly saying they deserve extra respect by virtue of the law.) And by treating them with respect you also telegraph that you aren’t going to be a problem. Assuming you would like your encounter with the officer to end in the best way possible, respect is a key ingredient in making that happen.
Certainly you have the option to not behave respectfully. But I don’t care what profession it is, airline pilot, CPA, doctor or architect, if you start behaving in a disrespectful way you are going to be met with irritation and most likely dismissal. Cops don’t have that option. They have to deal with you whether you’re disrespectful or not, and to the degree you are you’re going to come out of it worse off. Just bein’ real.
I can guarantee you that had I adopted an attitude with the officer, my experience would have been much less pleasant for him and me both, regardless of my race or how I looked. You can never go wrong by being respectful to an officer.
Well, it was more than just my words. As we were exchanging greetings he came up to my car and stood right next to my window. He could see my eyes and observe my demeanor and how alert and unintoxicated I appeared to be. I have a pretty strong suspicion that anyone drunk enough to start veering toward a median would evince it in their appearance and demeanor.
So what? He was empowered to stop me, and in the process of obtaining the privilege of being able to drive the city’s streets I agreed to pull over if stopped by the police (and to follow their directions if they’re directing traffic, and in any number of other ways in which they’re given the authority to make me do things if I’m behind the wheel.
Again, so what? It was what it was, and I would have made things worse if I’d copped an attitude with him. Again, you can’t go wrong by treating cops with respect and consideration for the dangers and difficulties they face in the course of their work, no matter who you are.
I would have been fine with it. I knew I hadn’t been drinking and I knew I had nothing that shouldn’t be there in my car. And again, complying is part of the contract you agree to when obtain a license to drive.
Well, I’ve spent precious little time in ghetto surroundings but I suspect even there cops don’t pull people over for no reason. But even if they did, so what? If you’re doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear, and again, you agree to stop and comply when you get a driver’s license. So then all you’re out is five or ten minutes of your time.
Besides, if one is tuned in to the realities of life they understand that certain groups of people are more likely to be engaged in wrongdoing than others, and one should understand and make allowances for that and not take it personally. I drew a fair amount of police attention when I was in my teens. Not because I was necessarily doing anything wrong but because I belonged to a group that was more likely to be up to shenanigans than the average bear. I understood that and therefore didn’t take offense when a cop stopped me (which, incidentally, they always had cause to do. It’s pretty easy to get a little sloppy and commit some sort of error that you can be pulled over for). Usually they’d just check me out, look in the back seat and floorboard through the windows, ask me where I’d been and where I was going, etc. And except for the times when I was actually speeding or something and got the ticket I deserved, I was always let off with a warning for whatever minor offense I’d committed and sent on my way. But again, I understood that from a cop’s perspective teenage drivers (and teens in general), are more likely than the average citizen to be doing something they shouldn’t, so I didn’t take offense.
I would maintain if not a cheerful, then at least solemn and respectful manner anyway, because I’d know that getting pissed or starting to give the cop a hard time wasn’t going to accomplish a single damn thing that was positive and may very well make things worse. If I was really in a bind I’d probably try explaining to him the problems the ticket would cause and the consequences I’d face, but if he gave me the ticket anyway I’d still be polite and respectful. But I think I’d also start asking myself why I was in such dire straights financially that a traffic ticket would screw up my whole world. Then maybe I’d decide I needed an additional part-time job or to cut back on my expenses until I could get some savings built up.
No, it’s 100% real life. In most traffic stops the policeman has a range of citations he can write you up for. If you’re polite, cooperative and respectful, he may very well let you off with a warning or a minimally expensive ticket. But if you cop an attitude he may very well give you the worst ticket he can under that circumstances. Now you might think that’s bullshit, but it’s the way the world works. If you give people crap, whether they’re the police or anyone else, they’re going to try to make you pay in whatever way they can. Give you boss a hard time and he or she may give some of your hours to someone else. Give a waiter a hard time and you might wind up waiting longer for your food than you would otherwise, and/or have unappetizing additions made to your dish. Etc., etc., etc.
And there should also be no expectation that he’s going to cut you some slack either, should he have the ability to do so. Give minimal cooperation and you’ll likely get the standard penalty. Be a nice guy and maybe you’ll get off easy, or be a jerk and get the book thrown at you. Which of the three you choose is up to you. If you’re pragmatic and smart (and mature), you’ll realize that taking the officer’s perspective into account and making the exchange as easy, safe and pleasant for him as you can (hands on the steering wheel, asking permission to get your registration out of the glove box, etc.) is how you’ll come out of it in the best shape possible.
Too late.
As I said already, behave disrespectfully or morosely to just about any professional and your experience with them is likely either to come to an end or you’ll get less service than you would otherwise. I don’t know why the fact that cops are professionals is taken to mean they’re supposed to treat you the same no matter how you behave toward them. Again, they generally have latitude in how they can treat or penalize you, and the worse you behave, the worse you’re going to get treated in return. And I suggest that you wise up to this fact and stop trying to tilt at windmills, because you’re only going to make things harder on yourself if you don’t.
More importantly, even if we acknowledge that some small percentage of professionals will act in such a way despite our best efforts, we don’t normalize that behavior or make excuses for them.
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What best efforts? You’ve spent almost this entire post railing against cops and ridiculing the idea of being polite and friendly to them, claiming they don’t deserve respect and are entitled to nothing more than minimal cooperation. Hardly anything I’d characterize as best efforts to get them to behave ‘professionally’.
It’s no lower than the level of professionalism I expect of any of the professions. Treat any of them disrespectfully or belligerently and you’re going to wind up on the short end of the stick.
I think you should start accepting the fact that you have a hard time empathizing with the plight of people who aren’t yourself, you have difficulty visualizing yourself in the shoes of other people and rather visualize other people in your shoes and come to the conclusion that everything in the world should be all honky dory.
As a white person myself I never had problems with law enforcement and have been pulled over and received a ticket at a rate of once every 3-4 years. If on the other hand I would get pulled over monthly, weekly or daily (see people who live within 100 miles of the border that are flagged down by inland customs/immigration checkpoints), or in general be treated how black people are treated, I know that I would not react well, I would go absolutely ballistic. At least I’m honest with myself.
I see. So in order to properly empathize with these people who aren’t me I should be telling them it’s okay to be angry, belligerent and disrespectful when the cops pull them over?
People who resist cops are more likely to suffer consequences than those who don’t? Are you sure about that, OP?
I wonder if you know how insolent this trite advice seems. Out of curiosity, were you one of those who thought “All lives matter!” was the appropriate response to demonstrate the inanity of “Black lives matter”?
Here’s a question for you, OP: In an encounter between a public servant, trained in law enforcement techniques, and a citizen in trouble, who might be distraught, stupid, drunk, crazy or criminal, which person has the greater ability and greater responsibility to act carefully? The cop (who elected to intervene) or the citizen in trouble (who didn’t ask for police attention)?
Here’s a way to paraphrase your advice: Citizens: No matter how distraught, drunk, stupid or crazy you may be, try to behave rationally —* the cop is likely to be even more irrational than you are!***
Tamir Rice isn’t an isolated example. YouTube has hundreds of examples of citizens being obviously mistreated by brutal unworthy cops. Not all are shot dead, of course. Some are just tazed into paralysis or such, but it’s much MUCH more than “10 or 20 out of 320 million.” The fact OP trots out such an ignorant number demonstrates OP’s broader ignorance.
The mistreatment of Tamir Rice and hundreds of others give citizens a valid reason for fearing the cops; this fear increases risks to both cops and citizens.
The priority should be to ensure police departments have more respect for life, and better training. Cowardly and brutal cops need to be fired. Trying to blame the victims, as OP does, shows ignorance about the real problems and contempt for the lower classes, where most of the victims come from.
How about cops meet us halfway and stop randomly murdering people? Or beating them in the street for no goddamned reason? Or shooting dogs on a whim? Or brutalizing mentally handicapped cancer patients at the airport?
If you’re in your car, keep your hands on the steering wheel (or on your knees if you’re a passenger). If the cop asks for license/registration, tell him where it’s located and then ask for permission before you reach for it. Once you’ve handed your documents to the cop, put your hands back on the wheel/your knees and keep them there.
If you’re standing, keep your hands clasped in front of you. Don’t fidget, don’t wander. Don’t put your hands in your pockets. Since you’re not driving, you are not legally obligated to show a license/ID, but if you feel like complying with the cop’s request, ask for permission before reaching for it.
If you have a CCW license and are currently armed, AIUI you are legally required to inform the cop that you are armed as soon as he makes contact with you. Once you have done so, keep your hands where they are until the cop tells you what to do next. I have had CCW-licensed friends who were in traffic stops; in some cases the cop while take your gun from you and give it back at the end of the encounter, and in other cases the cop will say “thanks for letting me know” and then proceed with the traffic stop as if it’s no big deal.
Telling the cop you have a gun on you while simultaneously moving your hand out of his line of sight is a bad idea. You shouldn’t expect to get shot until/unless your hand comes back into view holding a gun. A paranoid cop with an itchy trigger finger might shoot you before your hand comes back into view; he should end up in a lot of hot water if that happens, but you’ll be dead, and that can’t be undone.