I thought the sequel trilogy was good.
if you didn’t, that’s ok. Not going to fight about it or argue it to death.
It also does positive damage to the old characters. Luke and Han become losers, and Luke’s legacy is erased.
They do that and they are a missed opportunity to do something good with the three old characters and they are just not good movies.
One critique that I don’t think anyone can deny is this: The movies passed on the opportunity to have Luke, Han, and Leia back on the screen together. I don’t see how that can be seen as anything other than an objective failure of judgment. And no, it’s not because Carrie Fisher died; they had already killed off Han in the first movie.
If these movies had been a standalone series, they would be considered mediocre sci-fi like Jupiter Ascending (which I watched and found, surprisingly, not too bad) and Valerian (which I tried to watch and, OMG, no no no) and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. But because it’s under the Star Wars brand, we are. Which goes back to my original point: what a powerful brand, Star Wars.
Though imagine if there were a place where we could go to discuss/debate movies…
I agree. George barely brought it over the finish line the first time. It was probably better to quit than try to make sequels right afterward. But IF they were to be made, I think they should have been made then.
I mean, your argument seems to be, “They were meh+ movies, so what’s the prob?”
And I would say: make meh+ original movies and save the Star Wars IP for material that fits it and will uphold the quality standard. (Now obviously, the Prequels shat all over that proposition, at least the quality part.)
I guess my question, then, are you open to debate? Are there opposing opinions that would sway you, because so far you are just reiterating your points as responses to contrary opinions.
I don’t think your criticisms are strong enough to support your conclusion. You do. I think the movies served a fine purpose, were fun, and enjoyable. I don’t think not having Luke, Leia, and Han together was a misstep. You disagree.
What’s the debate?
Sure. I have found that, almost to a person, the defense of the Sequels tends to be exactly the kind of thing you are saying: “I thought they were fun, fine as movies, etc.” I call this the “meh+” argument. People who hold this opinion are not saying they were world-beating masterpieces in their own right, and they are not saying they are a totally awesome continuation of the OT.
I don’t have a problem with that opinion. If they were a standalone series, I think they would be mostly ignored as mediocre sci-fi, but there is still a lot of money and high-quality effects, etc., put into them. There are some decent setpieces and funny moments.
So I think that, if the above more or less accurately reflects your point of view, then we are arguing mostly at cross purposes. I am saying that they are not a good and worthy continuation of the OT.
I’m happy to debate that point. I’m not going to debate the point of whether they are an OK way to kill some time and “take in a flick” or whatever. A lot of movies that aren’t very good are fun to watch.
I find this hard to believe.
Do you think that it’s better that they did not get together, that it was a positive thing that this was avoided?
Or do you feel that it simply doesn’t matter either way?
Those seem like the two choices to me, and I think either is hard to defend. Why would it not be better to have the old favorites together?
If you are going to make that argument, then I would counter: Then why have the three old characters in the movie at all? Why does that matter? Why have it be Star Wars at all? Why does that matter?
I’m saying I don’t wish to be browbeat into justifying why I like them, which is what you’re doing here and is what most Star Wars discussions devolve into anymore. I don’t have to believe they’re “world-beating masterpieces.” Especially when the original trilogy (IV-V-VI) wasn’t either.
It’s reversion to the mean. Of course the recent movies were worse than the original, because most movies are worse than the original Star Wars. If we waited for “worthy” sequels before we’d attach them to the Star Wars franchise, we’d be waiting for a very long time indeed. Not many movies, period, live up to that standard, and most of those that do would make no sense at all as Star Wars movies.
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You are not required to participate. Why are you doing so?
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How am I browbeating you? We’ve barely even interacted.
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You don’t have to believe they’re world-beating masterpieces, and I agree that the OT wasn’t either. I am simply making the point that Sequel defenders mostly do not make the contention that they are truly great movies.
I think you are correct that the OT would be very hard to live up to. A lot of it is luck. You can’t force the kind of chemistry the original cast has to exist, and lot of new things were tried that just happened to work.
That said, they had all the time and money in the world to get it right, and they got it spectacularly wrong.
I think one thing that confuses the argument and leads to arguing at cross purposes is this:
Sequel haters like myself hate on them as Star Wars movies.
Defenders defend them as movies.
By itself, The Force Awakens would have been a quirky space adventure with some pros and cons to it. I wouldn’t consider it a success, but I wouldn’t despise it either. I think it’s a terrible Star Wars movie, however, and the other two are worse.
I think the defenders think, “Why are you being so mean to these movies–they’re just nice movies!” They don’t understand that the fans actually want and need the sequels to continue the OT in a way that makes sense and is satisfying in terms of that original story line and universe. If you don’t ultimately share that sentiment, that’s fine. But I think it’s a bit willfully clueless not to understand why fans might not like how things have turned out.
I don’t consider myself a Star Wars fan per se. But I do like the OT and don’t think either the Prequels or Sequels live up to that standard in any way, the Prequels shit on it through sheer incompetence and arrogance.
It just baffles me that for something that had so much money, time, and manpower behind it that they would completely disregard coming up with even a loose story arc to follow.
The only I can figure is that they never really set out to make a trilogy in the first place. But rather 3 new movies, same characters, may or may not have anything to do with each other.
So instead of getting a long story arc of something like Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Marvel, we instead we got 3 different unrelated stories. Closer to something like the new Star Trek movies, or Toy Story, or Mission Impossible.
I have always been a Star Wars fan, I was the perfect age when the OT came out, 7yrs, 10yrs, 13yrs respectively. Though I didn’t embrace the Expanded Universe too much, I read a few of the comics and novels and played a game or two, and I was very excited for the Prequels, which turned out to be incredibly disappointingly awful in every way imaginable. I don’t like any of them, not even the music score or lightsabre duels.
Then in the 2000s I was part of the Star Wars fan film community. I was dogsbody crew and visual effects artist on four different fan films (and subsequently original films) and it was there where I saw the kind of Star Wars that I wanted to see: Stories about secondary characters in other locations and time periods of the SW universe. Some of them were pretty bad, some of them had good core ideas let down by budget and skill, and others are truly excellent despite being hamstrung.
When the sequel trilogy began, it felt like a fan film with a budget. I loved the new characters, I was intrigued by the storyline, I was disappointed in how many touchstones seemed unimaginative and samey from the OT. The Last Jedi thrilled me with its promised possibility when it played around with tropes in a way all formulaic movies need to do once-in-a-while to stop being stale and predictable. But I am crestfallen by so much of The Rise Of Skywalker, its wasted potential and seeming kowtowing to the worst schoolboy-level ideas.
If it had stuck the landing, I would be cheering so hard. But it really didn’t, and so I now think they need a reshuffle in management. I have been on Kathleen Kennedy’s side throughout, it really seemed like she was doing her job well, that when shit went down she handled it effectively, like a good Producer should. But this misstep at the end is a real fizzle, and I think if she steps aside from Star Wars and moves to solely looking after other Lucasfilm properties for a while, like Indiana Jones or Willow, while people like Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni concentrate on heading the TV department to keep the light alive, that would be the best move.
I think Star Wars needs to be an ongoing story that should not be left fallow. It’s one of the few properties to have an extended universe big enough for multiple kinds of stories to fit into, as multiple novels and comics have proven, and it’s time they took advantage of that. Maybe movies are not the best place for it anymore, they take too long to make, too much money, for only 2 hours of content, and need a box office return that is unrealistically stratospheric. There’s got to be a better way, and TV has got to be it. The Mandalorian works, keep doing that.
I didn’t find them “meh”. I cried like a baby during the last 20 minutes of Skywalker. I cheered and kept hitting my husband’s leg every time something exciting happened. I had a fantastic time.
You find it hard to believe that not having the three main characters wasn’t a misstep? I’m sure a fun movie could have been done around that plot arc, as long as it wasn’t derivative. Remember, much of the original three didn’t have them together a whole lot anyway. But I thoroughly enjoyed the movies, so I’m ok with what they chose to do. So, no, not a misstep. I like that they focused on the rise of the next generation.
And FWIW, I loved them as Star Wars movies. They did it for me, as someone who saw every Star Wars movie in original theatrical release and the original trilogy more times than I can count.
There’s something about being 14 in 1977 that makes every subsequent Star Wars film a bit of a disappointment. I would have been content with just the one film without all of the familial soap cluttering up a perfect two hour epic saga.
Right. Franchise stewards really have it tough these days, as fan fic is a standard that movies, TV shows, etc., are expected to beat. A common complaint these days is, “Don’t you assholes realize that your FANS are writing better shit than this?!”
(I know you know this, but I am pointing it out to others in the thread who don’t seem to understand the importance of the fandom. As indeed Lucasfilm, Kathleen, and the two directors have not seemed to understand. Arrogance and hubris.)
Yes. Amateur hour.
Ya think?!?! No, at first, Kathleen was sitting right there with George and telling him (and us all) how she was going to respect his legacy and the characters and all that jazz. Wow. How did she manage to shit so hard on it all? It boggles the mind. The only explanation I can come up with is: Hollywood bubble and people breathing tanks of their own fart gas or something.
I think it’s hard to come up with a really bad bad guy after Palpatine, which is why Snoke didn’t work (and they didn’t even bother trying to make him work) and why Kylo ultimately didn’t make much sense. Oh, but… more Palpatine! Hard, but perhaps not impossible, but they really screwed that pooch with the Sequels. I mean, what do they do now? Even the EU was stuck in that rut with having Palpatine cloned and whatnot, though there was some interesting stuff with Luke interacting with him and whatnot that could have been sequel fodder back in the 80s (I am not a consumer of EU stuff but have read Wookiepedia with some interest, for those who are curious…)
They can’t do rump Empire stuff with Thrawn. They can’t do Yuuzhan Vong. Those were approaches to post-Palp stuff that at least pleased some fans. So just come up with someone who is really, really strong in the Dark Side and is eeeevil?! Yawn.
OK, fair enough. I find that opinion very hard to understand myself, but I can respect it.