Is the Chinese preference for Beijing over Peking “linguistic snobbery”?
I assume you’d find it grating if people insisted on calling you “Yokhanna”, would that be “linguistic snobbery”?
Yeah, that’s basically the issue I have. Abraham vs Avraham is close enough that Abraham is obviously referring to the same guy. Jeremiah is completely different.
There’s always Keefe
I would love to see the same rigorous attitude when it comes to pronouncing English words too.
Not in the least. I like it! I call myself that when using Hebrew. That being the etymology, after all. Just like I call myself Giovanna when speaking Italian.
Well, there’s a little linguistic snob in everybody, though it’s a bad habit. I’m a stickler for only one thing: the /k/ sound in bruschetta. Speaking for my own ethnic group. You better write it ברוסקטה or there’ll be trouble.
Moderating:
There was a point in the ongoing discussion about exact ancient pronunciation where it related to the OP, but I think it’s been it’s own thing for the last dozen plus posts. If any of you would like to create a new thread, let me know, and I’ll be happy to move the appropriate posts there. Otherwise, I think we’ve given this particular sidetrack enough time in this thread.
Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, looks like a curving arrow point to the right.
Choose Reply as linked topic and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it.
That is actually the best method.
In addition, a few of these last posts have come far too close to attacking the poster, not the post. Let’s make sure to avoid that going forward.
I use the Hebrew pronunciations whenever it’s not likely to confuse the person I’m speaking to. I’m not Orthodox or Hasidic, but one of my rabbis taught that we give honor to our ancestors by pronouncing their names correctly, which makes sense to me.
It took me comparatively late in childhood to master “th”. I substituted “f” until I was six or seven.
Strangely, I’m the other way around. The way I see it, names are a part of language. If you have a different word for “door” or “cat” in different languages, why shouldn’t you have a different word for “John”? My name is “Yehoshua” in Hebrew and “Joshua” in English, and I’m fine with that - in fact, I’d be mildly offended if you addressed me by the former. There is no way you’d ever catch me saying “Yirmiyahu” while speaking English, because that’s not English - that’s Hebrew.
I do not think it is so simple. What if you are speaking English, but the guy is Russian? Say his name is Илия. How are you going to address him? Ilya? Elias? Elijah? Eliyahu? I bet the first one, but that is Slavic, not English. What about a Chinese guy named, I don’t know, 海 [Hai]? Leaving Hebrew out of it, what are you going to call him in English?
In both cases, i call him whatever he asks me to call him, to the extent i am able to pronounce it. I had Chinese co-workers with “English names”, and Russian co-workers with Russian names. I called the Chinese by the English name they asked me to use, and the Russians by the Russian name they asked me to use.
When the guy has been dead for centuries, i usually use the same name as the book or people taking about him use.
This seems like the only reasonable answer. (In fact, after they introduced themselves, why would I spontaneously switch it up?) I did have an odd experience once where a Chinese woman told me her name was such-and-such [not a Biblical or Hebrew name at all], so that is how I addressed her, but, apparently, she got annoyed by people mangling her name, so soon afterwards an “English name” was coined, but I never used that one. She seemed mildly surprised that I could pronounce her name (perhaps there typically was not much effort being made to do so?)
That is going to vary with what language the book is in or what language people are using for the discussion, of course. I agree with @Alessan that we, here in English, are probably going to talk about the Book of Joshua. [But how do they refer to Confucius in Hebrew…]
The English language also tends to Anglicise the names of foreign monarchs, so Gulliaume or WIlhelm become William, Friedrich becomes Frederick and so on. German used to do that too, but nowadays we call them by their genuine names, at least the modern ones, so it’s König Charles (of Great Britain) and not König Karl for instance (the historical ones are still mostly called by their Germanised names).
What name would someone use to refer to you if they were speaking neither English or Hebrew?
Why? Maybe it’s a Southwest US thing but we informally call people by their Spanish name all the time even if they aren’t Latinx. Someone named Paul could be called Pablo for example.
I have never heard of this custom.
Neither have i, but in my 7th grade French class, we were all supposed to take French names, usually the French version of our given name.
It’s not much as a custom but it’s a somewhat common thing to do among friends informally more akin to a nickname. Paul could be Paulie or Pablo.
We did the same in Spanish class in school and if your name didn’t have a direct Spanish equivalent you could choose something close or anything else you wanted. That’s how my Japanese-American friend Glen had the nickname Paco all through High School.
My name is John. Just John. There are currently two living people who are allowed to call me “Johnny”. If someone were to call me Juan or Jean or Ivan or Yochanan, I’d probably be very confused. I’m reminded of a routine the comedian Gabriel Iglesias did about being invited to do a show in Saudi Arabia. When he arrived, the prince who was paying for it met him at the airport and called him “Jibril”, which he had no idea was the Arabic version of his name and lead to an awkward conversation between himself and the prince.
(Yochanan is going to be part of my Hebrew name when/if I convert, but I imagine I’d still be pretty surprised to hear someone call me by it.)
I was given a “Hebrew name” when i celebrated my bat mitzvah. But my given name is perfectly pronounceable, modulo a minor accent. When i visited Israel i introduced myself by my given name.
My mother was never given a Hebrew name, and was called to the Torah as Nancy bat Shmuel (plus sometimes something for her mother, which i forget.) Consider doing something similar.