The eternal part of hell makes at least a little more sense—though I’m not advocating it—if you think of it, not as punishment for crimes that you commit (like a prison sentence), but as punishment (or natural consequence) for what you fundamentally are.
Genesis 2:17 God warned Adam he could become mortal and die. Nothing more.
Genesis 3:19 God tells Adam he is dust and will return to dust. Nothing more.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 The dead are not conscious of anything at all.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 There is no activity or awareness in death. (Sheol)
Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.
Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”
Job 14:13 Job, suffering pain and sickness asks God to protect or shelter him in Sheol.
Psalms 146:3 and 4 When you die you die.
Romans 6:7 and 23 Death releases us from sin, no punishment after that.
Jeremiah 7:31 Very telling.
Instead of bringing people closer to God, the idea of hell has pushed them away from God.
We can easily say that it actually accuses God.
It’s a slanderous lie. Now who would think of such a thing?
So - you’re using OT quotes (from a people that didn’t (on whole) believe in the Christian Hell - after all, those pesky NT folks didnt exist at the time) to prove a point about what NT writers believed - while ignoring the clear implication in the NT from JESUS himself that would imply that Hell exists - if he didn’t mean the implication in his ‘parable’ he surely could have used other words or simply said “hey HELL isnt torture, its simply a nap”.
Your logic needs some work.
Now - as to lieing - is that important? Should we discount any work that contains lies as ‘evil’ (since that is the implication you are making) ?
Hey, whatever you say. I can’t even follow your reasoning anymore.
You ask if we should classify lies as evil. You ask if lies are even important in the equation.
I’m sure there are many people on this planet that will agree with you.
I won’t spoil the fun by calling your works evil if they would happen to contain lies. I’ll just call them inaccurate.
You win.
Well, you need to get over your unease, bucko, before you end up in H-E-Double Hockey Sticks your own damned self. Remember that:
- God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform. No, it isn’t in the Bible, but you better believe it OR ELSE! I mean, with the next two lines it becomes an A-B-C-B rhyme scheme and anything that rhymes must be true. Look at Rap. When Snoop says his whizzle is the shnizzle you better believe it’s true.
- If you do try to understand His ways, which are way too mysterious for you to understand so don’t even try, that’s a big sin and a one-way ticket to You Know Where.
- A numerical list and I only have two entries? “Profit!!!” wouldn’t be appropriate so I’ll say “Hi, Opal, wherever you are, which is probably not where that odd fan of a Country singer says you are!”
So watch it, buster. He might take His eye off the sparrow and then you’ll have Hell to pay.
Mickiel, just to clarify, that was not intended to be taken seriously, mostly, henceforth indicated with a 
.
Remember the words of our own theologians, gobear and Qadgop the Mercotan, Jesus gave up a weekend for our sins. Not much of a sacrifice for an immortal, but it was a long, Holiday weekend during baseball season. Vinegar in a sponge is no substitute for a cold beer.
Actually, one of the problems with the Universal Flood hypothesis is that the oceans would be flooded with fresh water and the overflow would mix salt water with fresh, leaving behind only those aquatic creatures that can survive in brackish water. Law of Unintended Consequences, and all.
Verily. “He said that every human life is infinite in potential. There is no limit to what any given soul might accomplish,” means that a human can, if he tries, become as powerful as God. I don’t think that’s the message that person was trying to convey, but he did.
999,999,999,999,999,999 trillion billion quadrillion years sounds just a tad long to endure Heaven, too, you know.
So - I did not ask if lies are ‘important in the equation’ - what I was asking - since you have a hard time following a simple question -
You are clearly intimating that any group that believes (or teaches) ‘Hell Fire’ must be tools of ‘Satan’ because its a ‘lie’ - is that an accurate assessment ?
Does believing a lie make you a tool of satan or does it require teaching it?
Does any ‘inaccuracy’ count as a ‘lie’ - especially if the writer/teacher ‘knows better’ ?
Does any single lie spoil the whole thing? Or does it take a quantity? how many?
If you need a simpler way of looking at it - use a white piece of paper and a pencil - how many dots until the paper should be thrown out?
I have no religion, I am not a religious man. I have no faith; I believe what I believe from the facts I have researched and that I agree with, and what I am conscious of; We can only be conscious of, those things we are conscious of. I agree with most of the bible, just not how it has been translated by the translators. I do not attend church and I walk alone in my belief.
I just like the bible, but I dislike how it has been interpreted by Christians.
Like this eternal hell punishing thing, I totally disagree with that, God will do no such thing. But Christians believe in it because of how some biblical verses have been translated, and I think translated in error.
The Valley of Hinnom used to be a place outside of ancient Jerusalem where the apostate Israelites and the followers of Ba’al and Cannanite gods, including Moloch, used to sacrifice their children by fire. Eventually that died out but the place began being used as a burning pit for dead bodies, which they kept continually burning to keep down pestilence; this is what eventually became known as the Greek " Gehenna", and the Hebrew " Gehinnom", also called Hades or the Grave; some referred to it as Tartaros; but it was a physical place outside of Jerusalem. The Jews, Christians and Islamics eventually choose that to represent their view of eternal hell burning. This is where it came from. And translators of the bible made sure they got it put in there through their understanding of it.
I don’t even believe the term " Hell" was in the original transcripts.
God is not confused or mad in my view, I disagree with that; and he does not torture his creations, that is a myth in my view. And I don’t believe in that myth, nor am I interested in changing your view of God, or anyonelse; we think like we think, and understand as we understand.
So - you’re creating God in your image?
Functionally a deist approach - but it seems you still like the trappings of ‘revealed’ religion - you just pick and choose the parts you like or don’t like.
Why is your approach or belief (or lack thereof) in hell any more valid than someone elses?
I think you mean “manuscripts”. In any case, see here. Jesus (if accurately quoted) definitely believed in a place of eternal torment in the afterlife, see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
Well I go by what I view as Gods own ways and means as described in Galations 5:22-23, which I think is an exact description of how God is; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self control, none of which adds up to this eternal hell belief, but adds up to a totally different view of how I think God really is. And all that he does, or has done, much match these ways and means in my view. These ways are how and why he does what he does, and he will not eternally punish humans in some Christian hell.
Because these ways are how God really is, not how these Christians are saying and teaching that he is.
So, you happily ignore all the ‘other stuff’ that he did or ordered done in ‘his name’ ? You also see the irony of of “he would never do this stuff, but the occasional human sacrifice is ok, after all , it was his kid” , right?
And you seem to subscribe to whats to come in revelations - with all that burning and smiting of the non-believers…or atleast what happens after all that when ‘death is no more’…
I’m not finding your concept very cohesive - not that many ‘god’ concepts are - but, hey - it works for you, right?
Well yes your correct, I do mean manuscripts. And I disagree with how Jesus has been translated by these religious groups. Jesus mentions hell 16 times total, 11 of those times he meant " Geenna", the Valley of hinnom. 5 of those times he meant the Grave. That is how I view it in scripture. The Old Testament mentions hell 31 times, each time it meant " Sheol", the Hebrew for the Grave. And absolutely nowhere in the Old Testament is anyone ever threatened with eternal hell as a punishment for sin; nowhere. If such an astonishing punishment were true, surely God would warn those people of it; he did not!
The New Testament mentions hell even less, 23 times total; 12 of those times it was Geenna, the physical valley of Hinnom. 10 times it was Hades, or the Grave. Only one time, in 2 Pet. 2:4 did it mean " Tartaros", the Greek for hell which can mean eternal torment, and that was for demons, not humans.
Well it does work for me, and I could care less who would try to think and choose for me what to believe. I am content with my belief. I understand that God has killed more humans than all humans put together have killed each other; but none of those human killers will bring their prey back to life and give them eternal life freely in another existence far greater than what they had; God will do that; and that is a defining difference that no cynicism can degrade or smear. Its just reality as it is.
Consider this famous fragment:
… that whosoever believeth in him [COLOR=“Brown”]should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/COLOR]
“Everlasting life”? What I was taught was that the “lake of fire” did not serve as an eternal torment but as a sort of ectoplastical crematorium. The idea of soul death was terrifying to the Hebrews, salvation meant that your soul would survive your physical death forever, damnation meant that you would simply cease to exist.
It could also be that the Old Testament was written by one set of human beings, who had one set of beliefs about the afterlife; and the New Testament was written by another set of human beings, who had a different set of beliefs about the afterlife. There could also be disagreements among the various Old Testament writers or among the various New Testament writers. And it’s possible that not only were some of the human writers of the various parts of the Bible wrong about what happens to us after death, but that all of them were.
Annihilationism is far from limited to the JW sect. There are certainly a good number of Biblical verses that point in that direction. The trouble is, there are others that point to lasting torment in a sea of fire with the gnashing of teeth, etc. This is one of those things where there isn’t a simple answer.
To enrich the mix, a few Christian sects believe in Universal Salvation, and that everyone eventually gets out of hell. Everyone goes to heaven, in this view.
As simster asks, what is the permitted threshold of error? Does a single issue of disagreement constitute absolute heresy? Or can a bloke be a “good Christian” while still clinging to one (or more?) ideas? Can a sect be “good” while teaching one or two erroneous ideas? If perfection is a requirement…then there aren’t very many “Christians” in the world.
Well speaking of cease to exist, in my view of God, and I don’t want to give impression that I know God , because I don’t; but in my view, if God does not like something, for whatever reason he can simply " Will it out of existence", and not be bothered with it in eternity.
I mean he must have that much sense, why make an eternal monument out of something he does not like?
This must be considered.
Well this is one reason I believe in God, that he is real, - how the bible was written. 66 different books really, and the first book printed on a press. Over 40 different authors in fact, none of whom compared notes, and was written over a span of 1500 years; simply stunning! Hey man, in my view, they had " Other worldly help " for sure. Come on man, humans can’t do that now, and the results have so much cohesion. It was written on 3 different continents, Africa, Asia and Europe; amazing! And written in 3 different languages; come on man, no other book even comes close to these historical FACTS!
This book has been the best seller or a top seller for " 400 years running!" Hey man, case closed, its academic! Who’s going to write a book now that takes over 40 generations to write? Its been translated in over 2,000 languages and they sell 50 of them every passing minute, every passing year; stunning!
And to top these stats off, listen; even the thief must enter into this phenom; the bible is the worlds most shop lifted book.
Hey man, its academic!