So which part don’t you believe-the fact that he is invisible, or the fact that he likes it when people sing to him on Sundays?
I went to a Christian school. In our “science” text-books, there was a picture of people farming with brontosauri munching on trees in the background, and pterodactyls soaring overhead. I burst out laughing, picturing a tyranosaurus charging out of the bushes, chomping them up with his massive teeth.
They used all of the tired old “young Earth” theories that have been thouroughly debunked, and even as a teen who as yet was no very educated in science, I could see through it.
They also insisted that Jesus’ wine-making miracle was, indeed, a non-alcoholic one. I brought up the scripture in which the guests said the wine was the best, and our teacher said, “Of course! Non-alcoholic wine tastes much better. They were so drunk, they didn’t know the difference.” She was angry when I said I’d be more impressed by instant wine than instant grape juice, considering the need for fermentation and all.
I’m not in AA, and have never attended a meeting. However, I doubt that they hold the position that their way is the only way to beat alcoholism; rather, they simply offer what they feel is the best approach. I’m sure they will readily admit that people have kicked the alcohol habit without using AA.
Zev Steinhardt
AA is basically faith healing. It doesn’t work unless you acknowledge some “higher power,” which for most people seems to mean Jesus Christ. They end every meeting with a prayer, and if you say you don’t believe in God or higher power they whine and bleat and tell you that you’ll never get sober. I have a close realtive who is an alcoholic and has tried to get sober several times. I have accompanied this person to several AA meetings, and it’s ll about praying to Jesus to get sober. 12 step is bullshit IMO.
I was just looking at what I think was the opposite of this thread, and was a bit upset, but felt it best to hold my tongue. Now I see why inertia felt it necessary to open that thread.
I am not religious or Christian or frankly very zealous about agnosticism or atheism, either for or against. But it is just a bit rude to poke fun at what many people who are intelligent and decent people hold as their most important belief. Whether your beliefs stem from ardent scientific fact or ardent faith, they are your beliefs. How you came about them and how logical or moral or sanctified they are, they are just that, your beliefs. I’d hope that people who want to expound their position, encourage discovery by others, and win their case would do so in a decent and courteous manner, not by belittling what is important to someone else.
“bullshit” as in doesn’t work at all or are you saying you would choose a different program for yourself if you were in that situation?
If you’re claiming the first…that seems like a ridiculous assertion disproved by even several dopers on this board.
If the second…I can’t imagine why someone would describe a treatment that appears to work for (I dunno thousands…hundreds of thousands) many people as “bullshit”, just because they would take a different path. 
What do you mean? to some people “belittling” is defined as any response other than complete assent or silence. As Robert Heinlein wrote, “One man’s religion is another man’s horselaugh.”
What about feng shui? Should we “respect” a belief that says moving your sofa will make you rich? Should we respect astrology? Crystallomancy? ESP? Should we respect liars and conmen like James van Praagh and John Edward? People believe in them, so does that make spiritualist fakers immune to criticism?
I am tired of the shibboleth that says religions may witness but atheism must be silent.
Well, He also likes singing on Mondays and Wednesdays too.
!
But seriously, my answer to the OP would have to be my former pastor, who said in Nov. of 2000 that anyone who voted for Gore was guilty of the death of all aborted babies (cause Gore supports choice).
In my monthly Birch meeting last night, the guy said atheism is a religion.
I don’t see how that could be; just because someone believes something (that is, that God doesn’t exist) makes it a “religion”.
:rolleyes:
Atheist can witness all they want. Can ya do it with the insults though? Simply because I feel Atheists or others may be incorrect in their beliefs, doesn’t mean they are <whatever> stupid, lazy, ignorant, gullible, perverts etc. They may well be, but not BECAUSE of their faith.
Damn, I wanted to get off this soapbox and tell Diogenes…again with the damned stereotypes.
This is what I’m talking about in the other (now) Pit thread. Perhaps my mistake in the OP is my assumption regarding the intelligence of Dopers. Surely we are losing the battle.
My father has been in AA since 1974. He dragged me along with him for years and I have been to thousands of meetings in hundreds of locations. I’ve read the Blue Book and know all the steps and traditions. I drink but that’s beside the point.
NOWHERE and I mean absolutely NOWHERE in AA are you required to believe in any type, sect, denomination, Buddha, Jesus AT ALL…you simply are required to have some higher power be it a damned pencil. Whatever…its a token that you can use (crutch for some) in order to transfer your troubles and not get drunk over them. Next thing is to call your sponser. YOU ARE NOT required to pray in any specific way…although "The Lord’s Prayer"it is traditionally used in most US AA groups.
MILLIONS of people worldwide have been “saved” by the twelve step programs in many different areas of abuse.
I gotta go…
Sorry that second line should’ve been “without the insults.”
How is a pencil a higher power? You fail to acknowledge that AA pushes theism. What about the hapless drunk who wants to clean up and not get hooked on a metaphysical dependency?
This reminds me of a line from a Cheech and Chong routine: “I used to be all messed up on drugs, but now I’m all messed up on the Lord.”
Response: I must leave now as I fear your ignorance is catching.
I once had the opportunity and the presence of mind to use that to a cow-orker whom (i)I didn’t like in the first place and (ii)I didn’t think could cause any career harm for pissing off (I was right). It’s been awhile, so I can’t remember what beautiful piece of ignorance was spouted, but I do remember it was PC-based, something less intelligent than the person who thought the CD player was a cup holder.
I am going to take issue with this.
I am not only not Christian, I have a hard time with the concept of surrendering myself over to a Higher Power. I got sober through AA, and recently celebrated 10 years of complete sobriety. In these ten years, I have attended meetings in several states, including Minnesota, and there are some that tend to be more religion-oriented than others. I’ve also been to a handful of meetings that took a more atheist bent, so there is a pretty good spectrum out there.
I will grant that there are individuals who claim that AA only works through faith, but AA as an organization doesn’t really care what its members believe or not believe. The steps do work if you’re willing to put a little time and effort into them, God or no God.
Robin
This is a distinction without a difference. I don’t believe in any higher power. None whatsoever. Can you give an example of a higher power that is not supernatural. Why is it that whenever I’ve seen someone at an AA meeting say that they are an atheist, that person always gets browbeaten and pressured into either participating in the prayers or choosing to leave the meetings. You said no one is required to pray “in any specific way.,” but many people don’t want to pray, period.
I always hear these people say things like, “Oh it doesn’t matter what your higher power is, it can be this table if you want,” which is of course, utter nonsense, it can’t be a table, or a pencil or anything but God.
I don’t care about particular sects or denominations, that’s beside the point. You are absolutely required to believe in some kind of supernatural power.
BTW, the success rate for AA is no greater than for people who just quit on their own.
MsRobyn, What do atheists use for their “Higher Power?”
I’m sure MsRobyn will answer better than I can, but when I worked at a substance abuse prevention center, I looked into this question. The AA materials I looked at suggested that atheists might regard the AA community as a “higher power” through whose support they could achieve sobriety. Made sense to me.
I personally find AA stuff a little creepy. At the same time, I have family members whose lives have been saved by 12-step programs. So creepy or not, I appreciate what they do.
And gobear, you bait and switch:
Well, sure. But a con man could also wheedle money and property from a good, caring atheist more easily than he could from a suspicious Christian SOB too, right?
All you’re saying is that sob stories are more effective on non-SOBs. Someone’s religion has nothing to do with it.
Oh! Oh! Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard a Pagan say: a guy in a Pagan group I was in during high school beatifically declared that everyone’s beliefs were true. I asked him if it were true both that I was going to hell (as the Jesus Crispies downtown believed) and that I was not going to hell (as I believed). He said yes, we were both right.
Whatever, dude. Go back to your bong.
Daniel
Although this one isn’t a directly-observed stupid Pagan trick, it’s the stupidest one I’ve heard about:
I made one of my best friends through shared loathing of a person who frequented the same pagan events as we did. My new friend told me that our mutual enemy was a member of a local CUUPS group (Coven of Unitarian Universalist Pagans), and that she’d offered to lead a workshop on psychic abilities for the group.
My friend went to the meeting. Anyone want to guess what our mutual enemy used as her primary resource for the presentation?
Go ahead. Guess. You can’t possibly guess stupid enough.
Give up?
The Second Edition Dungeons and Dragons Psionics Handbook.
Daniel
I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I generally choose to ignore the whole God thing.
Robin
Without loss of applicability, this could be filed under “Dumbest View of World War History Expressed by an American”, yesno?
Wow. Just… wow. You called all Christians gullible. I said that since 95% of people believe in God and worship him in some way, there must be a lot of gullible people. (obviously, my point here is that your assertion of gullibility is false, not that Christianity is true but I’d hate to whoosh you again, so I’m spelling it out for you as clearly as I can)
Reading comprehension > you. I said all people that believe in God and worship in some way = about 95%.